Denise 0:07
Myth, Magic, Medicine and everything in - between two doctors talking... Hello, welcome to Myth, Magic, Medicine medicine.
This is Denise Billen-Mejia and my guest today is Dr. Stephanie Byerly, an academic anesthesiologist, certified Life Coach and published author, who helps women take back control of their lives. Hi, Stephanie. Thank you so much for joining me today. So, you are an anesthesiologist, right but are you specifically OB?
Stephanie 0:40
Yes, I specialize in obstetrics anesthesiology take care of some really, really sick pregnant women.
Denise 0:49
What led you to that?
Was there anything specific or it just fascinated you academically?
Stephanie 0:54
I actually, in medical school, thought I wanted to be an OBGYN and then when I did my OB anesthesia elective - I loved anesthesia. So I went into anesthesia and then I actually specialized in neuro-surgical anesthesia and did some extra training in that and so neuro anesthesia for neurosurgical cases. And then my chairman said to me about, it was probably eight years ago, he's like, I think he would be great in the OB anesthesia arena, and being the head of this team that takes care of very ill patients. And at first I was like, oh, gosh, I don't know, I haven't done this for a while, you know, since really residency, ob anesthesia? And then I just fell in love with it.
Denise 1:38
IYeah, must be very gratifying. So yeah, well, I'm gonna sort of put a pin in that because as you know, I'm a hypnotist. So I'd love to come back to that. But I know that you also work with coaching women, women who are professionals, or maybe not professionals, but who feel that they've been traumatized or just can't see their way out of issues. Would you like to talk about how you got there, what in your life led you to that?
Stephanie 2:06
So, I always wanted to be a doctor. And I finally think I had figured out over the last several years, why I wanted to be a doctor, if you look at the ACEs survey for adverse childhood events, I sort of went off the charts with the number of them, but I was very ill as a child, and also had to take care of my mother, when I was about 12 years old, and who had a big surgery, I was also sort of marginalized as a child and had some, had sexual abuse and, and mental abuse with a mom who was very mentally ill. And so grew up just in a lot of really bad situations that I had been put in. And I somehow so you know, came out of it, like, I'm going to be a doctor. And so when I was going through, you know, training and all these things, I met my ex-husband, and we had were, you know, happy for a little while, but our relationship got to be very toxic. And he was a narcissist, and it was very damaging situation. And so it was a very sort of abusive relationship. And so got out of that, and have have have a daughter who has an addiction, and is in recovery, who's doing amazing, but sort of lived out all of the things that happened to you when you've had trauma as a child. And so what happened was, I realized I wanted to help women in a different way. So I take care of incredibly sick women. But I've always been a fierce proponent of of physicians, women in general, but women physicians, and I've published papers on that, but in this journey, where I realized that I wanted to help women in a different way, but I didn't know how to do that. And a colleague of mine said, you should become a life coach. And I was like, What is a life coach? And so I looked into that, and I was like, This is it like that it all fell into place. And so through my life coaching training, I'm a certified coach, but I really gotten involved in trauma. And so I'm a trauma-informed coach, because of what I had been through and what I have learned over my wellness journey of many years. And then finally, which culminated in coaching, that when you are traumatized as a child, it's part of who you are, it's actually what happens to you and it's baked into your, your physiology of your body, not only your brain, but your your physiology and I never understood why I was very reactive person. I did struggle with anxiety and depression in the past and I was able to work through that but I never understood why.
Denise 4:49
That is one of the things I think that that happens you tend to be a people pleaser because you're like keep things safe. Do you find that people find you and you allow them, you help them recognize that they've been traumatized, or do they realize it themselves and come to you? There's a lot of us don't realize these. Sometimes minor, multiple, multiple, multiple, but more minor minor trauma. Yeah, yeah, this is gonna go out on on the air, so people won't see my little inverted quotes here. But I mean, all trauma is trauma, but obviously, there's a sexually abused child, most people would consider a very major trauma, but there's a lot of the smaller like, Oh, you're just an idiot, kind of things that repeatedly get told to you. So...
Stephanie 5:40
Well, you know,as far as the little T's and the big T's, you know, trauma, one trauma can affect different people in a different way. So the same trauma can happen to, and it depends how sensitive your genetics is. And you know, we are pre-programmed from generational trauma, especially as women, collective trauma of women, that that's already in our physiology. And we do know now through epigenetics, that if a mother has suffered trauma, or has a lot of anxiety, depression things in during the pregnancy, that that actually gets baked into the baby as well. And my mother had significant mental illness. And so I, most of the time, my clients don't know that they have suffered trauma, but when we start talking about it in a very supportive way, not in a triggering way, and if they do get triggered, you know, ways first to like, embody the safety and then know if they need for like therapy, just trauma therapy is is an is amazing, it's life changing. But they start to realize things start to fall into place to them about wow, like, this helps me understand. And I and, you know, I follow a couple of really amazing people, Gabor Maté, and he wrote the book, like, basically, it's like, when the body says no, and he, he has literature through studies to show that most of our auto-immune diseases are caused by unprocessed trauma. And it isn't just autoimmune diseases, it's it's other, you know, it's so many other diseases, cancer things that we get. And so when you start to really understand the effects that trauma has, if it's not processed, then you start to realize, like, oh, my gosh, I am not broken. There's nothing wrong with me. And that, really, and truly, it couldn't have been any other way. Like your body is just trying to keep you safe. And so it doesn't realize that you're not still in the same situation, right? All that your body is doing is scanning for danger, and you're live in fight or flight.
Denise 7:48
You just just hypervigilant for everything,
Stephanie 7:51
And then it's ironic that I chose to become an anesthesiologist and pick one of the most stress inducing types of anesthesia, where my sense of constant vigilance, hyper vigilance is always but now
Denise 8:07
Two patients. Always two patients
Stephanie 8:09
Always two and things happen emergently and life or death, and, you know, and so, but but I would love to be able to help my clients understand that this is what happened to you, but there is a way out of it. And the other thing that I've learned that I think has just been so critically important is that there's a book called from Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey called "What Happened to You" and it really explains why people are the way they are and that of people around you are acting in a certain way instead of saying, What's wrong with you to think what happened to you, and the sense of compassion and understanding for those individuals, but then also for yourself. And it's truly life changing and transformational. I started talking about it, I just cant stop///
Denise 9:00
I can see you slightly tearing up I think. Yeah,
Stephanie 9:04
and because it's just life changing. And if the world like people knew about this, like it's amazing.
Denise 9:11
I mentor when I was a pediatrician, pediatric training, used to say the purpose of Pediatrics was to make internal medicine obsolete. So what could, what do you see going forward if we can help people heal from the traumas they've had? Had? Some of that will decrease the amount of trauma because traumatized people tend to traumatize but how else do you think we can as a society improve the situation? We're we're looking at another epidemic of post COVID traumas from from COVID itself. Physical abuse obviously went up, emotional abuse went up, alcoholism went up. What what do you what do you see, particularly for the medical profession, and its a dirty secret for most people, but doctors know how abusive the system is for us.
Stephanie 10:05
It actually isn't, I think, you know, we're talking about the non medical world, that it's, it's amazing, but not happening fast enough that we're becoming very trauma informed. So pediatricians, ER physicians, police officers, you know, first responders, counselors in school, to try to understand quickly what's going on for people and try to get them services for that. Because really, one of the first things in healing trauma is connection. So connection, and community heals trauma. And so if you can have someone that actually listens to you, because in our society now, so hard to just sit down and listen to somebody, but really be present, and listen, and so even just those kinds of things can help you so much. And I think, honestly, everybody's been traumatized in this day and age, because if we look at what has happened since COVID, it's been a tridemic, it's not just a pandemic, but we've had COVID We've had all the racial things that have been occurring. And we have had all the political unrest, and through all this trauma coaching that I've had, and really becoming more in touch with myself, being vulnerable is to end to allow sort of the guard down that we put up as physicians not to absorb so that we can actually take care of patients, as I've noticed some things that with patients have that are African American and, and we know that they get in inequities in care, especially in the arena of labor and delivery, and post delivery and things and maternal mortality rate is so high, but I've, I've noticed certain things when we've had to put patients to sleep pretty quickly for an emergency section about how they wake up. And I think they're reliving a lot of traumas. And it isn't just African American people that I noticed, I've just become acutely aware of, I've also done feminist coaching, and just the inequities for women of color. And that's really been something that is a new horizon for me, because to really understand the levels of marginalization, and to really like, what what happened to you and what's happening.
Denise 12:31
What do you think for physicians, generally, although we complain all the time about our money, to each other at least, it's expensive to be coached, if you have gone if you're, if you're barely surviving, would you like to spend this much money a month. And you're talking about people who've been marginalized people who who are not job secure, and yet are being traumatized, still, and obviously, coming from from generations of trauma, if you recognize that in as you go by the recovery room and recognize that this is clearly an issue? What services are you able are we as a society putting in place for people, because mental health care is so underfunded here,
Stephanie 13:17
I don't think we're putting a lot in place. But one of the things that I do is go back and circle back with that patient after they've had time to wake back up. And because it's a traumatic experience, when the baby has to, we have to get you to the operating room and put you to sleep if we have to put you to sleep and have that baby out in five or six minutes. And so, you know, I go back and just apologize and say, I'm so sorry, no, but I want to see if you have any questions for me, and I know things happen quickly, you know, but just know that you were safe the whole time, and we were there to take care of you. And this the ability to just connect with a person like that they just like you can see just the stress sort of melts away a little bit, then they don't, they don't perceive it as trauma and have that be another traumatic situation in their lives. You know, again, cuz you know, talking about therapy and coaching and there are a lot of resources for free therapy and or, you know, decreased price therapy. The amazing thing I think now is like the ability to look online for resources, yes, podcasts about trauma, you know, to all just all these things that people can get exposure to, even to just begin to understand how it's affected.
Denise 14:38
I think it's quite transformative when people recognize I don't know, maybe this will air I don't know, I was in therapy following my medical incident I had I had to leave medicine because I was very ill and I was in therapy, in part because of the complete loss of identity it was pretty traumatic, but I was recounting a few incidents to my therapist. And she said, Denise, that's abuse! Oh, yeah, it is. It wasn't just somebody, but it was actual abuse and recognizing that was actually very healing. It was it was, it wasn't me.
Stephanie 15:19
And in the medical profession, you know, we, I love what I do, but the system is broken. And all of us in medicine know that. And this is why physicians and health care workers are leaving medicine in droves, and especially women, which is very terrifying. But we have become, in a lot of instances, just a cog in the wheel. And I remember because I've been doing I've been out of training since 1997. The days when with physicians, you know, when what they said, it mattered, like it made a difference. And now it's, it's not in every situation that you're able to make that difference. And for women, this is escalated in so many ways, because there are so many objective things that happen to women physicians, we have gender pay gap, we have to get papers published in major journals less often,we get less grants we're promoted to Associate and Professor level, in academia, there's less Deans that are women. I mean, the list goes on and on. So these are objective things that are in the literature. But then we face sexual harassment, get called a nurse, called by your first name, I mean, these are just the tip of the iceberg.
Denise 16:33
Those are definitely the small ts, but enough of them can be very damaging..
Stephanie 16:37
Enough of them, right. And then and so, so often, this happens to all physicians, but as women physicians, it's even more prominent and amplified, and COVID has amplified that more. I don't know if you know this, you probably do that. More women in healthcare lost their jobs during COVID and got paid more pay cuts and men more furloughs than male physicians. And, you know, this is also escalated physicians leaving because they're traumatized, right, so it is. It's incredible. And I tell you we just can't think we can't do anything else. We've been trained that we're so and then we feel like we feel like we're betraying medicine. We're betraying medicine, right? If we do something else,
Denise 17:24
but, there's so many layers of you know, the amount of sacrifice and the sacrifice that goes into -everything you don't do because you got to get to medical, everything you don't do because you're in medical school, getting to residency the hours! I was trained pre hours cap, so my hours were horrible. I had two children. One was born. And I mean, there's some it's funny, my OB was really sure of your dates? Yes, I know exactly. When I had sex, okay, because I was unconscious, because you were where you had to go to work. But, so I had one beginning my second year and one of the beginning of my fellowship, that was a much better experience. Because fellowship was shorter hours, I was ambulatory, I had to cover the floors occasionally. But we had all of that, that we had given up all of the knife twisting things our kids say to us, you know,
Stephanie 18:15
that's part of the reason that women are more burned out because they and they take extra call. And they take on all these thankless roles, and they don't usually get reimbursed for it. They would never ask a man to do that.
Denise 18:30
Yes, There's there's that part. But there's also "How can I leave this profession I've given so much to? That I've caused my child to give to? And how can I now abandon it? Who am I if I'm not a doctor?"
Stephanie 18:45
You're still a doctor. You're just gone? I mean,
Denise 18:48
yeah, I agree. Right? But I've gone but that's the work that you do with your coaching is it not?.
Stephanie 18:53
I have gone back and said to my kids, and this was like probably a month ago and like, I know that I lived out my traumas through you and I'm so sorry. And I'm like, whatever we need to do together to heal that. Yeah. And they're like, We know you didn't do it on purpose. You know, but, but they suffered the consequences of that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Denise 19:18
Okay, so
That's really female expectation. I think there is, I hate the idea that girls aren't equal to boys. But you know, it still does seem to be an issue.
Stephanie 19:36
Patriarchy.
Denise 19:38
Patriarchy is still alive and well. We've had a little bit, a little bit more of a problem in this country recently than it used to be. Although we were still we were still trying to climb out of it. It then took several steps back for a few years where it was more obvious.
Stephanie 19:55
Do you -how do you deal with that when you're talking with with your clients.
So a couple things. There was, there's a woman who wrote this great book, I'm so sorry, "The Glass Ledge", she's an entrepreneur. Her name is, I'm gonna say her last name wrong, Iman Oubou. It's called The Glass Ledge. And so there's the external glass ceiling, which are a lot of the objective things that women face to break through to be, you know, whatever, you know, CEOs or you know, whatever they want to be, but the glass ledge is actually the internal patriarchy that runs in the background. And so I explained to my coaching clients that even through epigenetics, women have genetic instructions that are passed on to them from the days of the cavewoman and caveman, because women had to be attractive to men back then right, or you get kicked out of the cave, and eaten by a saber toothed tiger, right. And so we've learned from back then, and it's passed on in our DNA, again, survival instructions. There's another great book called The Patriarchy Stress Disorder, [Valerie Rein ] which explains this in detail, but it's fascinating. But so if we think about, there's something called white feminism, and that is where if you're a white woman, you think that all women are oppressed the same way that you are. But when you learn about the fact that each level of marginalization so if you're BIPOC, LGBTQIA plus, if you're obese, if you are disabled, if you're ageism, if you're neuro diverse, each one of these is another level of the patriarchy if you're, you know, of a different religion, that compound on top of each other. And so,
Denise 21:57
some some of those, of course, men, men of color obviously have, yes, there's, it's not just gender specific. But yeah,
Stephanie 22:08
it isn't. But But for these for some of these things, it is gender specific. So I'm just speaking for women, but so women, from the day we're born, we're socialized to believe that we're here to take care of everybody else. And that we get our opinion of ourselves based on others opinions of us because we are worth less than men, and that we don't have an internal sense of self. And that we only get that from external validation, which, in addition to other people's opinions of us, is puts us on a treadmill perfectionism, where we think we're going to feel good about ourselves with the more certifications that we get. And the more degrees and the more our to do list is and being a perfect parent. And we're supposed to look a certain way and act a certain way and talk a certain way, but don't get too much, don't be too much. Because that will get slapped back down, internally as well. And externally. And so it's very fascinating to watch my clients faces when they're like just the same as the trauma about, oh my gosh, like, this is the stuff that lives in my head the self criticism that self doubt, always trying to outrun it. And now I understand that it couldn't have been any other way. But through coaching, we learn how to actually break down all the thoughts, if we're having 60,000 thoughts a day as a human and half are negative and half are positive. Your primitive brain is always going to focus on the negative, how do we start to actually look at those thoughts and say, Is this a fact? Is this a story? How do I want to think about this? And do I want things to be different? So you get to actually live your life intentionally and understanding all these things that are actually real? But how do you want to deal with it? Do you want to, you know, we, a lot of us in medicine, get into victim mentality, because we think everything is just happening to us and that we have no choice in the matter. But when you become empowered, and that's what coaching is magical about is helping you become empowered and actually start to love yourself. And that's a process that because all we do is shame ourselves. And we all the shoulds I should have I shouldn't have get out of that negative spiral all the time. You started to actually love yourself, and then you're like, you know what, I'm coming from a very different place. And I'm going to show up very differently in every area of my life, understanding all of the stuff that's in the background.
Denise 24:44
How long do you think that? How long do you think the path is because there's gonna have a lot of stepping forward and stepping back. But because it's never it's never just one message that you're getting. There's there's 150 coming at you all at the same time, through your subconscious, which is a lot of what I do -get rid of the clutter in your subconscious so you can be mindful. But from the time somebody has that little light bulb moment of realizing that they've that they aren't broken, how long a process does it usually take for them to start seeing some traction with that realization to making real change?
Stephanie 25:23
I'll give you an example. So I met this physician at a conferences willing position, and she's Latina. And we had two coaching sessions, one when I met her, and then when we did our first official coaching session, and she was hesitant to apply for a major leadership role, because she had been marginalized in a role that she was already in. And it was a comment had been made. That she was the first Latina that had been role, a woman that had been hired into a role, major role. And after our first coaching session, she texted me and she said, I applied for that role. And
Denise 26:05
it's interesting, isn't it? How people say, Oh, you're the first this. Yes, isn't that shameful, considering how long it's been Latins around,
Stephanie 26:12
that's what got into her head. And that gave her so many limiting beliefs and self doubt. And so she then applied for the job, but she thought I know I'm probably not gonna get it, because actually, the person I'm going up against really is more qualified than me. Because she did such an amazing job on the interview that they actually called her up a week later and said, you know, we gave this role to this person, but we're so amazing that we've created this role for you.
Denise 26:44
You're not just your paper qualification, hey, so much more to a person on their paper.
Stephanie 26:48
Right? Then the end, when you start to show up from the, again, that confidence place. It's, it's, it's life changing. And you know, people see you differently, and they will treat you differently. Because the biggest, the biggest thing that happens is you set boundaries, and boundaries are for your self. And when you when you start to believe that you deserve the boundaries, that's when everything shifts,
Denise 27:19
Because everybody else has to respect those boundaries. So no, it is there a difference? Do you think in the work that you do in leadership, is because it's really a continuation of the same thing, isn't it?
Stephanie 27:31
Yes, because yes, because women are have been sort of programmed through the patriarchy, and socialization, that we're not good leaders, and we can't make good decisions. We know, we know absolutely know that women are fantastic leaders. And in the business world, they save companies, and we need diversity and women as well. And there's multiple reasons we're better communicators, we're better team leaders. We don't negotiate for ourselves. So we will negotiate for people on our team, and we'll take care of everybody on our team, but not ourselves. And what happens is, because we're programmed that we're supposed to make sure everybody else is happy, we're very attuned to people's states, like if somebody in a meeting gets a look on their face, we're like, Oh, we did something. And we started doubting ourselves. Or if someone doesn't respond back to an email the right way with the question, Why did I send that email or something I wrote in that email was, why have I upset somebody? And that's why because now on our phone, everything is right there. 24/7 If an email pops up, we think we have to check it immediately and answer, because we're supposed to make sure everybody else around us is happy. And so what happens is we internally burn ourselves out. So there's internal burnout, and external burnout. And we burn ourselves out because we're just constantly taking care of everybody else. And it really stems back to this insecurity and self doubt, because we've been programmed to think we're not good at this.
Denise 29:01
Or we're just not good period.
Stephanie 29:03
Or we are not good or the imposter syndrome is "Okay, someone put me in this role, and they're going to figure out that they made a mistake, like how did I get here?" So you're always scanning for this, like trying to read the room and make sure everybody's happy and and we take on thankless tasks? So we'll just say yes to everything because we think we can't say no, and then we're overwhelmed with an undoable schedule. The biggest part of it is when we realize that everything we do is because we think we're gonna feel a certain way. And then you do something, and you feel great for an hour and then you're like, Okay, what's next? That didn't make me feel great, and something else will make me feel great. And it just doesn't work that way. And so we, because we don't feel good internally, we tried to get all this external validation. And when you start to realize that, that's just all something that's been programmed in our brains, what that means it's like this weight gets lifted off your shoulders.
Denise 30:05
Okay, you can you can tell me you want this taken out if you want, but how do you see yourself as is helping women promote themselves into get themselves into leadership positions, because that is better for them they have more control over their lives or you think that women are better leaders. And therefore " rising tide raises all ships" you got everything would be better for everybody no matter what category they fall into?
Stephanie 30:37
Well, I think so I don't think that there's many people that are born leaders. But I think all physicians are leaders because we lead teams, but if you and so we have to be able to sort of really navigate the team to have a well functioning teams take care of patients, if we're looking in that arena, when you're talking about leadership titles. Women may have more work life control, I don't use the word work life balance or work life integration, when they can balance so from an empowered place.
Denise 31:15
It's the fact that you're choosing, you're choosing to work rather than just feeling you have to
Stephanie 31:20
Right, but you also are able when you don't have to have the work consume your life at home, then then you can be effective, and you can have it all. But women are just amazing leaders. And so the more women leaders are, and especially the diversity that they bring, women of color, etc. It's just that we, we are better at understanding how teams function, and making, allowing, teams to function effectively. And we know that women in the business world again, have saved companies that are bankrupt because of the different thought processes, and different ways that we do think, and communicate and advocate. And we're, you know, we're been programmed about money, that we're not good with money, but we are actually and this is proven in studies, we are better investors, and managers of companies than men,
Denise 32:13
right? Because we tend to look at a more global process,
Stephanie 32:17
And so when we allow ourselves to really understand that we are amazing leaders- the sky is the limit. But what I want women to understand is that the patriarchy does not want strong women banding together. It likes to keep women small, because if it's if strong women band together, then we take down the patriarchy. And that's not something that they want.
Denise 32:45
Obviously, the interest in any group is going to be self preservation.It's fair. And there's a lot of men who were also feminists, there's a lot of men who are our allies in this fight,
Stephanie 32:59
and we need them to understand and to jump on the boat with us without this isn't coming from blame. It just is no blame. It's just like it is
Denise 33:09
It is unconscious bias and other plug for my work but yeah, this is the way a boy was told to act and so he grew into a man that will act this way.
Stephanie 33:17
And men suffer greatly to and benefit from coaching. Because can you imagine how men are from such as a young age are really, you know, raised to believe "Don't show your feelings" and "That makes you weak". Right. And so, but we do need men to help us spread the word about just what women face. You know, this is the internal things that women and again, yes, men, they have things happen to them, too. And again, I'm not trying to say that men don't I'm just focusing on women, because that's my, my focus. But women. Yeah, women just don't, they're oppressed. And when they start to learn how oppressed they are, even though we've made such strides. There's still so much and then with the recent court ruling, you know, these things are all weighing on women greatly.
Denise 34:15
Yeah, that's, I guess we don't really want to be political. But yeah, it's terrifying.
Stephanie 34:24
Yes.
Denise 34:26
Have you seen a difference in your in your workload?
I've forgotten which state you're in.
Stephanie 34:33
I'm in Texas.
Denise 34:34
So pretty frontline there,
Stephanie 34:36
but I'm the I'm the chair of a women's committee for a large medical organization. And it has been nonstop since that whole ruling, and especially as an anesthesiologist, we participate in the care of women. And I just think people don't understand all the ramifications, sadly, of what is going on.
Denise 35:00
You okay,is there anything else you would like to say? You're allowed to give a plug for your business here, talk about your business, tell people how to contact you, it will obviously be in the show notes with the links. But please
Stephanie 35:17
I've had a wonderful time talking and I get very passionate about this. So, but my, my business is called The Physician, Healer, and it's @thephysicianhealer on Facebook and Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you go to my website, which is Physicianhealer.com, you can book a discovery call, but I love to coach you know, burnout is my is one of the things that I'm passionate about, because I struggled with a couple of episodes of burnout. Back before they talked about burnout. And as well, the trauma and the leadership and the feminist coaching, and just really wanting to help women become empowered, not just women, I coach men as well, and I don't coach just physicians, you know, women professionals, because we need to understand how amazing we are. And we deserve to be happy and have joyous lives and have control back in our personal and professional lives. And what I say for physicians is that so you don't have to leave medicine, because you don't have to. But if you do if you decide to, you do it from a very empowered place, and not a place of, I'm just going to go the grass is greener over here. And then you take your baggage with you and it's the same, right? You make a decision after coaching from an empowered place that you're proud to do that. Great.
Denise 36:35
Thank you so much, Stephanie. Lovely talking to you. I look forward to the next mixer and finding you on the right table.
Stephanie 36:43
Thank you, bye, bye.
Denise 36:46
Thank you for joining us at myth magic medicine. If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free CME credit through the link provided in the shownotes. If you're not a medical professional, please remember, while we're physicians, we're not your physicians, so please consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you have heard might apply to you or a loved one. Until next time, bye bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
