myth, magic, medicine, and everything in between two doctors talking. Hi, today I am speaking to Dr. Nishi. Bo Pol. Who is based in California or Western Canada? I'm a little confused by your, your location.
Yeah, so I'm based in California in the Bay Area, but I grew up in Western Canada.
Ah, okay. That's where my confusion came in. Yes, the internet's been very helpful, but I get confused quite often. So, I do know that you are a psychiatrist. Did you add sleep medicine to your practice? Or did you switch over to just concentrate on sleep medicine?
Yeah, so yeah, so I'm a psychiatrist. So I did my residency in psychiatry actually started out doing internal medicine, I matched into internal medicine. And I did that for a year and realized it wasn't quite for me. So I ended up switching into psychiatry, after my intern year. And then when I was doing my psych residency, I discovered sleep medicine. I didn't even know that was a specialty that that one could study. And I discovered it actually through one of my internal medicine, senior residents. And so she was going into a sleep fellowship. And so I found out that there was actually quite a famous Sleep Center at the hospital where I was training in psychiatry. So I ended up doing rotations with them. And I got really interested and got to see the overlap between mental health and sleep and physical health and just how truly multidisciplinary sleep medicine is. So I ended up doing a sleep medicine fellowship, after my psychiatry residency.
And I just asked a question, do you notice are a lot of psychiatric illnesses also involved sleep disorders?
Many of them do. So for example, there's a very high prevalence of sleep disorders in people with depression. There's actually a bidirectional relationship with mental health disorders, and sleep disorders. So, you know, we see very high rates of insomnia in depression, but also hypersomnia, maybe about 10, or 15% of people with depression have hypersomnia.
That's the sort of let me pull the sheets up over my head and take note of the day that that kind of sleep powder
kind of thing, or like what we would call excessive daytime sleepiness. So people might still be going through their day, but they're just so dog tired. They have brain fog, their fatigue, they might even have sleep attacks or feel like they just need to take a nap in the middle of the day. So they're pushing through, right. So I see a lot of these patients in my practice, they're really like just hanging on by a thread pushing through, but they're so darn tired. And on an Epworth sleepiness scale, which is how we would assess a person's level of daytime sleepiness, they'll score over 10. And, you know, see people with scores of like 15, or, or more
generally, these people self report depression, does that mean I'm just thinking, if I was the general practitioner, and somebody came in and said, I just can't stay awake? Probably my go to a bit of maybe you've got sleep apnea? What? How would you tease that out at the general level first, before you decide who you're going to send somebody to?
Sleep apnea is a great consideration. So that's, that's pretty high on the differential. And then even with people who have depression, about one in five people with depression have undiagnosed sleep apnea. So it's quite common. But yeah, Sleep Apnea is certainly in the in the differential. But I would just start by taking a really good history, right, like, that's what it all was. used to do? Yeah. So I start with just a really good history, and just start to tease out what's going on with their sleep. So questions I'd like to ask are, what time do you go to bed? And what time do you fall asleep? Because that's not always the same time? What time do you wake up? And what time do you get out of bed? Do you snore? Does your bed partner notice any apnea or unusual behaviors in your sleep? Do you feel a need to nap during the day? What's your sleep schedule on weekdays versus weekends? You know, so there's lots of data you can get just from a really good history. Now I know with family Doc's, and even psychiatrists
in the five minutes that you have with your patient, yeah.
So I have a pretty rigorous screening form that I have patients do before I see them for an intake. So I actually put all these questions on the form, and then we'll investigate further during a session. It might take a few sessions to really figure it out. But the rating scales are helpful as well. So there's the Epworth sleepiness scale to assess levels of daytime sleepiness. So, you'll see scores on that really low, though, people who have insomnia, because they have so much hyper vigilance during the day that you're gonna score really low on that. But you may see really high scores as well, which could indicate hypersomnia has like narcolepsy could be related to depression or even sleep apnea. And then stopband questionnaire, which is a great screening tool for sleep apnea, but it kind of misses the mark with women and certain other communities. Because I mean, it was standardized for white men, so
misses half the population, because half the population, so
you can't just go on that score alone. Sleep apnea. It's really subtle in women, too. We can talk about that. If there's interest there. But yeah, so I mean, it really comes down to history during some of these screening tools, and then if you're not sure, send them to a sleep doctor or something for a sleep study, if you don't have a sleep specialist in your area, and just got a better look at what's going on. So
if you're really have no idea you would go sleep not psych first.
Yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit biased, because I'm always looking for sleep. Because it's so fundamental, right? Like, if you're not sleeping, well, it's going to affect
your mental health. And honestly, since the invention of the electric light, I think most people have been sleep deprived. Yeah.
Yeah. We've all been sleep deprived. It's just wreaked havoc on on our sleep patterns and our daily routines. So yeah.
Okay, so I Joe Blow, GP have sent you a patient and you are evaluating said patient? What would be the sorts of things after the screening? What are the sorts of tests that you might be doing for them?
Right, so for me, I'm an integrative sleep specialist and psychiatrists. So my practice is mostly psychiatry, with sleep added on to it just to answer your first question, which I never got to. So yes, integrative psychiatry, and then I have this kind of niche carved out where I see patients for, for sleep. And so I don't specifically treat sleep apnea anymore. I used to work in a sleep clinic where I did that. But now I really like to look at things in a holistic, integrative way. So if somebody comes to me for help with sleep issues, so yeah, I do all these screening forms and a really, really thorough history that might even take a couple of sessions, we go into trauma as well, we go into mental health issues. And then of course, like very, very detailed sleep history, I O have people do a sleep diary for a couple of weeks just to get a better picture. If they're using a device like an aura ring, or a Rube or a Fitbit, I'll have them collect data from that device and send me a few weeks worth so we can really start to investigate. But I also like to do bloodwork because I'm always looking for micronutrient deficiencies, like suboptimal levels of vitamin D, or B 12, or iron ferritin, that may not be causing their issue, but could be exacerbating their sleep issues or mental health issues.
I'm fascinated by the idea of being anemic. could cause sleep disorders, but okay.
Yeah, yeah. And there's a very specific sleep disorder, restless leg syndrome that is attributed to low iron, right. So that's a simple blood test any any GP or psychiatrist could do to check for ferritin and iron studies. Guidelines recommend doing it fasting now. fares in less than 75 is a risk factor for restless leg.
Thank you for that. practice medicine in the clinical setting for a long time. That's a new one on me. So okay, so now that I'm also intrigued then that you you did you train in nutrition specifically or just in relation to sleep? Yeah, I think we should all be practicing integrative medicine, we should take whatever help our client our clients patients can have from all specialties. So
I agree. I mean, integrative medicine is just good medicine. The way that's not
there's there is no alternative medicine. It's either works for people or supplements. Yes. Right.
Exactly. So I became interested in in integrative medicine as it's called back when I was in residency. Because I was dealing with a lot of stress and burnout. I mean, who isn't during the residency but so I discovered yoga and meditation at that time. And those practices really, really helped me and I just saw how there were dimensions of health and healing that we weren't addressing in conventional medicine. I wasn't learning about these things in my residency. So that kind of just opened up this door for me to investigate complementary alternative medicine to learn more about integrative psychiatry, so I I started just doing courses on my own. Just kind of in bits and pieces so I I started studying a little bit of integrative medicine. I studied a little bit of Ayurveda. I mean, I read there's a whole
path. That's a whole path of medicine. Yes. It's a
whole path. I mean, it's a whole, like spiritual path and way too.
And so is yoga, I mean that this was yoga.
Unknown Speaker 10:17
Yeah, yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So I started doing all of that Ayurveda that for people who don't know is the ancient system of healing from India. So it's very comprehensive. And so I studied that, but I realized, okay, that's not my path, right? I don't have a lifetime to dedicate to this. It's just it's not, it's not my path. And then, yeah, I started doing other courses as well. And then they're this integrative psychiatry fellowship came up, it's called IPI through the Integrative Psychiatry Institute. So I was in the first cohort of students who took that program. Now I teach their sleep module for integrative sleep, and now I'm studying functional medicine, so I just can't get it.
Yeah, that was gonna say, Are you one of those people that just can't not be studying? For formally? I mean, obviously, we have to learn all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what you're kind of, I know, I'm cheating here. But I'm, I'm a founding person for your sleep program for doctors, the you, you are trying to get the word out. Or to decrease the amount of sleep problems for doctors.
Mix of both. I so I came up with a sweet course. It's called the Holistic Sleep Reset. And it's for it's for patients, for patients and doctors, of course, doctors can be patients too. And it's eligible for CME. So clinicians can take the course or they can offer it to their patients. And I just made that course based on my experiences, with my own patients, saying the same things over and over, you know, many of us do in clinic. So I thought, Well, why not package this up, and have it as a resource for patients. And then we don't have to go through all the basics in clinic, then we can really start to personalize. So it's called the Holistic Sleep Reset, it follows a five step process, just to get people started with improving their sleep and understanding CBTI (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia) understanding nutrition, understanding Mind Body practices and implementing those things. And, and I was getting a lot of questions, and I still get a lot of questions from my physician colleagues and therapist colleagues, because I work with a lot of therapists, as a psychiatrist, about sleep, or they'll send patients to me for referral for consultation. And I thought, well, there's a lot of need for for the sleep education. Most doctors only get about two hours of sleep education during medical school. But every patient has to sleep, right? So. So I started putting together a course for doctors and for therapists, and it's called the Clinical Sleep Kit. So it's not quite a course it's more of a kit of materials that you can use in clinical practice. And there's a section for patients. So with materials that you can offer to your patients or use with them in practice, and there'll be a section for doctors, which is just more medical education, kind of along the lines of what we're talking about before like checking ferritin and basic guidelines. So you just have a one stop shop of things that are high yield. So you don't have to go into a sleep fellowship, or going take these, you know, hour -ong sleep, you know, many hours-long sleep courses filled with information that you might not actually be using.
Is there a danger that there will be more than one cause? And the you would, you would find that indeed, somebody needed to have their first and supplemented and then she would get a bit better, but we would miss something more serious?
Well, I always remind doctors and patients that there's probably is more than one cause probably not just one thing that's affecting their sleep, or that's affecting their health, right. And that's the integrative model is that there are many causes. And we want to really get to the root of what's going on. So I look at it like a jigsaw puzzle. And we're just addressing different pieces of the puzzle, but we can't just address one piece without ignoring the others.
Okay. So how about the doctor who is chronically sleep deprived? Is there anything they can do to improve the situation apart from quitting medicine and going for a nine to five job? What can they do to help themselves more efficiently sleep?
Yeah, so I mean, which, who, who isn't chronically sleep deprived? Right, like we live in a chronically sleep deprived society. Sleep is actually a public health crisis. The CDC has has proclaimed that so A few things that I would recommend one is just, you know, I'm a psychiatrist. So I'm always asking people, What is your relationship with sleep? So let's examine that. Let's ask that question is like, you know, what is your view of sleep? How do you prioritize it, because it really does come down to changing your relationship with sleep and partnering with it. Recognizing that it is the foundation of your health of your mental health, that you function better when you get optimal sleep. So really making it a priority, because as you were saying before, the electric light has kind of thrown our routines into disarray. And sleep is usually the first thing to go when we're trying to catch up on things. You know, you're catching up on work, or you just want to catch up on that Netflix show that you've been watching, or whatever it is, sleep goes out the window. And then we end up becoming, you know, chronically sleep deprived, and then we try to catch up, quote, unquote, on the weekends or on holidays, it just doesn't work that way. So that's the first step is to really make sleep a priority, and embrace it as something that is going to help you be more productive during the day.
Okay, thank you. And another little thing that that comes to mind is the concept of sleep procrastination. Like, I've had no time to myself, it's not how consciously think and this is, as a hypnotherapist says this is the conscious thought. It's just like, why am I still up at one o'clock? Because it's the house is quiet, and it's mine? How can we address that? I don't, that's that's probably everybody. Not everybody on the planet. But many, many people, they don't have to be doctors to have have too many people and do many things in the day.
Yeah, that's, that's a huge one. And so actually, so I have a YouTube channel on sleep. And my Bedtime Procrastination video, I think is my most popular video. And it actually went viral on Tiktok. I didn't have Tik Tok but somebody told me about it. Yeah, and I think it just it hit home for a lot of people because many of us struggle with this bedtime procrastination thing. This term came out of China called Revenge Bedtime Procrastination, where it's like, you know, you're just, you're just yeah, you're just, I don't really, I'm not gonna go to bed. I'm gonna stay up and do what I want. Even though I have to get up early. There's almost there's this rebelliousness that's, that comes with that. And yeah, part of it is because we're so busy during the day, we have no time for ourselves. And then nighttime is the only quiet delicious time that we have to really enjoy. And so we end up foregoing sleep and then staying up late and reading or watching TV or scrolling social media or whatever it is catching up on work, whatever people are doing. But then it again, it backfires. Because then you just feel horrible the next day, and
there are still 24 hours in the day regardless. Yeah, yeah,
exactly, exactly. So how I recommend dealing with this as one is to start to carve out time for yourself during the day as much as you can. And what that means it can be very, very simple. Like, it could mean just closing your eyes for 10 seconds. Like if you're a physician, you're seeing patients, just close your eyes for 10 seconds and just breathe. So you can, you know, activate your parasympathetic nervous system, and just calm down a little bit. Take your lunch break, I tell this to all my patients,
it's all possible, do it outside, do it outside, if
you can do it outside and and don't scroll your phone while you're eating your lunch, or, or catch up on emails, just give yourself even if it's 10 minutes, right doesn't have to be a full hour. But take your lunch break, chew your food really well really enjoy it. Take some time after work, just again to like decompress, maybe it's doing a breathing practice, maybe it's just stretching for five minutes going for a walk. These small practices during the day have a big impact to regulate our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. Because otherwise, you're like a bullet train all day, right. And so many of us are just kind of going from one thing to another, you don't slow down, and then the end of the day comes in, we crash and then we just want to get out on the couch. And it's just not a healthy rhythm to be in. So that's what I recommend to people is number one is to just start to carve out these little tiny practices during the day that are easy and sustainable that you're actually going to do so it's going to be different for everybody. And the next is to decide in the morning what your target bedtime is that night. Because if we're not intentional about it, we're just gonna go through the evening you might say, Oh, let me just watch one more episode or, you know, I'll just finish this movie or whatever it is.
It is funny, isn't it when when you realize that those things are still gonna be there tomorrow and the weekend with. Yeah, they're not. We have to finish it today.
Unknown Speaker 20:06
Yes, they're not going anywhere. And neither is your work going anywhere. Because I work with a lot of people in, in, in tech, I'm in the Bay Area. So, you know, they go through the workday, and then at night, they're catching up on stuff. Oh, no, I just need to finish this one project or whatever. It's not due tomorrow, like you can. It's still gonna be there tomorrow. You have time, right? So it's this mindset of like, of scarcity when it comes to time. But we have more time than we realize. And when you allow yourself to sleep, you actually give yourself more time because your brain is just functions so much better,
won't be so foggy.
Yeah. So set your time in the morning. So that's, this is an important one. So decide what time you're going to go to bed and then you work backwards, and you plan your day accordingly.
Are you a proponent of of waking up at 5am I, disclaimer, I am not because that feels to me like, you know, the clocks going forward and back, which is still good 24 hours. But of course it is before the kids usually, that's often why you get up because you've got some I can sip my coffee without somebody asking me for something. Which is part of revenge, procrastination, too.
Unknown Speaker 21:20
So I'm a proponent of of getting up at the time that works for you. I am not a 5am Wake-Up person that just does not align with my natural rhythm
Sorry, for all the surgeons listening.
Unknown Speaker 21:37
Because why I didn't do surgery. Why I did psychiatry, I can start my workday at 9 or 10am. So I'm so work with with the sleep schedule that works for you. So it may that may be dictated by your work schedule if you're a shift worker, or if you know if you're a surgeon, or you know, you have to wake up really early, you've got small, most small children. You know, there's not a lot of control you have over that. So that's why it's really important to be intentional about your bedtime and try to stick on a regular schedule as much as you can. And I know for shift workers, they can't really do that. But for people have to get up early, try to stay on as much of a consistent schedule as possible. And what that means is on weekends or days off, get up within an hour of that time. It doesn't have to be exactly the same time, but within an hour, because otherwise you get into a jetlag effect, which we call social jetlag, which is just like jetlag, but without traveling. And so that can really be disruptive to your rhythms. But if you if you don't have to wake up early, you know, there's Yeah, there is this whole notion of like, yeah, if you wake up really early, you'll be more productive. I don't, I don't really buy that. Because if you're, if you're waking up at a time that's not aligned with your natural circadian rhythm, you're not going to feel good, like I don't feel good getting up at 5am.
And circadian rhythms are weird. And a science also themselves, I mean, you've you've got, we've all have variation, some people are on a 26 hour o'clock, some people are 23. What do you do if your household is not on the same rhythm, I remember going to stay with a friend in Nevada, I knew her really well. Didn't realize her husband didn't click their husband's anesthesiologist. And he would go to bed at 830. So the whole house shut down at 830. Because he had to get up at 4! It was actually very good. Because I was up in the mountains and I was exhausted because I had traveled from flatland into the mountains. I needed extra sleep that worked very well for me. But do you have any tips on how do you cope when when things are sort of everybody's sort of out of whack? If you're going to be dictated to by your children having to get up the crock of dawn for school, at least in the US the school day starts really early, particularly for high school, which can disrupt things. So how, how would you suggest people attack that?
Yeah. So So again, it comes down to consistency. So if you if you don't have a lot of control over over those schedules, and yeah, you have kids who have to get up early, or you have a partner and you know, maybe it's really disruptive when they wake up at 4am or 430. I mean, I patients who describe this, you know, it's really disruptive, if their partner has to get up at 430 or 5am. And they don't have to get up to eight. And then there's, you know, those three, three and a half hours of sleep that are really impaired to see if you know, one is, can you sleep in a different room? And that's always it's not always a bad thing. You know, people think about, oh, if I'm sleeping in a different room than my partner, then that means we've got serious issues in our relationship. And it doesn't, you know, like, if if you sleep better, if each of you sleeps better -it's going to be better for your relationship. So that's one thing to consider. But another is yeah, if you have to get the kids up and ready for school if you have to drop them off or what have you then maybe you do need to get on a more consistent routine that's a little bit earlier, and kind of shift towards that. It's a tough one. Because, yeah, I mean, there's there's not a lot we can I mean, if you're single, or if it's just a couple of you, you know, just you and your partner at home, and you're on a similar schedule, it's much easier. But we do have to kind of adapt to what's going on around us.
And of course, the other thing that completely throws, young adults are usually young adults, when you have a baby, and all of a sudden, nobody sleeps. Do you? I assume you don't see infants for sleep disorders. But do you have any advice for for people who have that challenge, which can go on for quite a few years?
Yeah, so I don't I don't see children. And I have a few colleagues that I refer to for, for Child and Adolescent sleep issues. But yeah, I mean, for the young parents, you know, again, it comes down to that mindset of not losing hope. That, you know, it will get better, you know, you will be able to kind of get onto a routine at at some point, but, you know, as they say, like, you know, try to get sleep when the baby's sleeping when the baby's napping, sleep when you can try to get help when you can. You know, so I have a lot of patients who, you know, they try to do everything on their own, you know, especially if you're a high achiever or you're perfectionist, they're afraid of asking their parents for help, or siblings or other family members or or even hiring help.
This is such an easy thing. I must be able to do it. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. And people are working full time. And then they're, you know, juggling small kids. And, yeah, right.
And I think another aspect of this, it's not revenge part. But it's when you're working, and everybody's out of the house, and then you want to spend time with your children. There's a tendency to have a later bedtime for children than that's necessarily good for them. Because then you finally get to see them. And the children obviously look forward to that. And so they set their clocks that way. And yeah, it is, it's a struggle.
It's a struggle. It's a slippery slope to because I actually saw a patient last week, who she's got. She's got a toddler, I think he's, he's maybe three, and or two or three. And he they were doing that. And now he goes to bed at 10. And he won't go to bed before then. And she's pulling her hair out, going like, can you please just go to sleep? So, so yeah, so you have to be really mindful of that, too, because kids will get into a rhythm. And you know, as adults, we need routine. But kids really need routines. And so they're on an hour later routine, it's hard to shift them out of that.
Yeah, it is. Do you recommend ever for people to take naps during the day? I'm talking about not not a 10 minute, close your eyes to just to have a moment of pace. But an actual like a siesta. My husband is from Latin America. So the constant which is going there, a lot more countries now really don't have that except in the countryside. But traditionally, everything shuts down for a couple of hours or so. And then they run much longer into the evening and children's bedtime is later in the evening. Because they take naps in the day. So you think that's a good idea.
I love it. I I would be a huge proponent of bringing back the siesta. Yeah, it's actually when I was a kid. We lived in Scotland, Scotland for a few years as a child, my dad grew up there. And so we'd go for holiday in Europe. And there's a photo of us in Spain, all sleeping on a bench. Because it was siesta time, and everything has shut down in the country at that time. So yeah, so we were just sleeping on a bench for a few hours in the afternoon. And then we got up and had dinner and went about our day. And yeah, so I, I am a fan of naps, I think are so we have a natural circadian dip in the afternoon, usually around two or 3pm depending on your your body clock. And that's an ideal time to take a little bit of a snooze. And it could be a power nap. It could be that 10-20 minute power nap. But there are other kinds of naps as well. I have a video in my YouTube channel about the different kinds of naps. But sometimes we do need a restorative nap and that might be a couple of hours. If you're sick, right, if you're recovering from COVID or if you you know, have been working shifts and you're just really, you know, really, really dead tired. You might need an extended nap during the day. I'm working with a patient right now who has severe depression, and he's got extreme fatigue. He doesn't have a sleep disorder. we screen for for all of that. But he's just, he's got this severe fatigue and hypersomnia. And he asked me, Is it okay to take naps? And I said, Yes. So he's been sleeping like 10-12 hours a day. Or he was now. Total, total. Yeah. So he's sleeping, you know, eight hours at night, and then another few hours during the day, to put him on a medical leave for his treatment. And so he slept basically for a couple of weeks. And now he's back on a normal sleep schedule. His his body needed that restorative time. So it's important that people really listen to their bodies. I think
so many, so many things we think of is just us is this weird culture from way back when, like women used to be have a lying in period, right? You start you stopped seeing people before the baby, and it was good six weeks after the baby. And all these little rituals that we had that we no longer have. And people have to go back to work, especially in America, because we don't have maternity leave. But so many of those things really were health related. It was so much better for you to have that extra half an hour asleep or an hour of sleep a day. Yeah. Do you? Do you see? Do you think there's hope that people will realize this, and we can go back to some of these more sensible routines?
I think there is hope. And I I agree with that. I mean, these things are common sense, right? Like, but in our modern society, we're so disconnected from our bodies, from our own health from nature, they have electric lights, where, you know, we're just working all the time, we're on these rigid schedules. When life doesn't work that way, but nature doesn't work that way. And our sleep will even change with seasons, right? And you might notice your sleep is different in the summer versus the winter. I mean, animals hibernate. And as humans, we might need more sleep, too. So I do have hope, though, that things will improve culturally, we're starting to see the shift like 10 or 15 years ago, nobody cared about sleep. No one was talking about it. Now it seems like sleep is everywhere. There's all these sleep influencers online. I mean, we're talking about it right now. And there's all these devices to measure sleep. So people are interested. There's a movement across the US to get rid of daylight saving time. I, which I'm a huge fan of I think there's no need for us to have daylight saving time is really disruptive. And actually studies show that it increases risk of health issues after
increases car accidents, and particularly in young people.
Yes. Increases car accidents, risk of stroke, cardiovascular events. Yeah. And even it with schools. You mentioned high school starting earlier, there was a push to change that, as well. So I think there is hope things are changing. People are becoming more aware. It's going to take time, but I'm hopeful.
So we're kind of getting to that time. So would you like to give another little plug for your course. When will your toolkit for furnishings be available?
Yeah, so, yeah, so um, well, Mike. So I've got the two courses. So holistic sleep reset that's available on evergreen so people can get in anytime that they're interested. So you can go to Interbalance.com. To get the details on that. You can also check out my YouTube channel, Intrabalance, I n t r a balance. To learn more about the course or learn more about sleep. Clinical Sleep Kit, I've got a waitlist for that. So that I would expect will come out later in the next few months. It's September right now. 2022 As we're recording this. So in the next few months, I'll expect that one to come out.
Okay, and do you have a podcast?
I don't have a podcast. No. So I always say
YouTube. YouTube is okay. It's I remember you. You said you have a partner who's not even in the US.
I have a business partner. She's in Australia. Her name is Amanda. She's a sleep coach. We're putting together a product for women's sleep. It's all a little mysterious right now. So I'll share more later
Can I ask is this to do with perimenopause or is this in women across the whole spectrum?
across the spectrum? Okay, sounds exciting. I'll
just ask you back and come and talk about it. Yeah. Well, come on. Thank you so much. Nisha is it's great to talk to you. Sleep is one of my my pet things. Because whenever I see a new hypnosis client, the second session, they always tell me how much better they're sleeping because they've learned to relax. And it is such a huge, a huge benefit. Early to bed early to rise. All right. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
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