Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis and the benefits it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor turned consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode. Good idea. Should we get on with the episode?
Martin Furber 0:42
Yeah, let's get on with the episode? We decided to have a change today we're having a Pride special.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:48
Actually, I should have told you put your flag up behind you.
Martin Furber 0:51
Yeah, well, I have sort of have a rainbow of books.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:55
Yeah. A rainbow of books.
Martin Furber 0:57
And of course, of course there's me.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:01
And then of course it's pride month. the month of June on both sides of the pond.
Martin Furber 1:07
Yeah, it is even though a lot of the LGBT actual pride events over here are in July and August in many, many places. Yeah. You know, they're at different times of the year. Like Manchester, for example, has always been August bank holiday weekend. That's for as long as it's existed. Liverpool is the end of July. But yeah, nevertheless, everywhere still, you know, been rainbow washed, as we call it. So we're not rainbow washing our podcast for today by any stretch of the imagination. It's actually quite pertinent to us, isn't it? Yeah, as well, for those that don't know it, I'm a gay man.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:53
They've probably twigged!
Martin Furber 1:54
So well, thank you! So yeah, I do you frequently, make frequent mentions of my husband. So Pride Month is underway, and we thought today that Denise and I would have a little chat about LGBT clients and hypnotherapy.
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:10
But you probably have more than I do, just because of self-identification. I would like to think of myself as LGBTQIA friendly, but um, yeah, I haven't. I haven't walked that walk. And it's different, just as you, have not walked my walk. So there are some things I think that you would clearly be better equipped to deal with.
Martin Furber 2:37
I mean, put it this way as a Hypnotherapist. One thing, we're told in training is, you know, bringing life experience to the job is beneficial. So, I would say, that yeah, I have walked that walk, maybe that's beneficial for my clients, but it's a matter of preference, isn't it? And it's a matter of who people feel comfortable with overall, I wouldn't say I could particularly do a better job with somebody who's LGBTQIA than somebody who isn't, because that would be wrong.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:15
But surely, it would depend on what their issue was. I would think.
Martin Furber 3:17
Yeah, yeah. Let's say for example, somebody was coming to terms with recognising their sexuality. Because it does happen. It can happen later in life with people. You know, it can happen somebody in their 30s could, could have been fighting off feelings in that direction for many years, and want to finally accept themselves. Yes, hypnotherapy can help with self acceptance. What it won't do and can't do and I certainly wouldn't do is help anybody change how they're feeling, what their preferences are sort of thing. You know, that wouldn't be the thing. You can have people though, who have been aware of their sexuality from their early teens. They've lived with, it coped with it, they've been through that self acceptance thing. They've gone through life openly. Then all of a sudden, they get to 25 or 30. And a lot of issues from the younger years come back to haunt them for want of a better description.
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:25
Which is honestly true of most things in life, a lot of the things you suppress while you're doing other things, like getting on with your career or whatever. Yeah, they'll pop up again. Actually, I have a question for you, though. You're 10 years younger than me. So you you were coming of age at the time then, when there was a lot going on in the community as far as acceptance by the general community a lot more. You've got rid of the law for a start. I remember the law being changed in Britain.
Martin Furber 4:54
Yeah. Well, when I realised sort of thing around age 15 It only been decriminalised for 10 years. So societal attitudes, we're still very much remembering it as a crime.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:08
Right? And so if you were dealing with a man who was 70, who was dealing with that, how, how do you? How do you think the younger generation is responding to it? And now, of course, we're looking at some blowback over here on this side of the Atlantic. And I wondered what it's like for you.
Martin Furber 5:25
Well, that's big news over here. Because, you know, there are a lot of fears being expressed over here, especially in the trans community, a lot of fears being expressed, about things going backwards rather than forwards. Especially in terms of the trans community. I mean, that's a whole other argument sort of thing. You know, we're to trying to talk about hypnosis and the LGBT community, but there are, it is scary times. And, you know, again, you talk about sort of going back 40 years, whatever. All the gay pride events, they were protests, there were real protests, people who were fighting for the right to exist, fighting for equal rights, fighting to be acknowledged, fighting to or protesting, I used the word fighting.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:13
That was what I was thinking, I was thinking that the younger generation has only seen the fun stuff, because they didn't need to be protesting, but now things are changing again. So do our, our younger, gay men and women having more issues or fewer issues than you had in your age, do you think?
Martin Furber 6:33
Um, I can see the issues increasing, and I've certainly seen the issues in my younger trans clients. Yes. And that fear, that it's that, you know, when we are bombarded with bad news, like we were during Covid, you start to concentrate on it, amplify it, and it really puts fear in there. Certain young clients seeking out news that affects their community, their gender, etc. And then, you know, unfortunately, we're that way inclined, we concentrate on it, and then it's causing anxiety. So I've been helping clients with that, in terms of the younger people, or I mean, I'll give you a similar analogy, then. Okay. Because I'll, you know, just say go back five years before all this present issue started, in the present, one thing another. Five years ago, the younger LGBT generation, yeah, it was all about having fun. And they hadn't been through what my generation had been through. But, isn't that a little bit like, the generation before me saying, we fought for your country, we fought in a war, you know, I have no idea what that was like. And yes, we we got all the benefits from it, from the generation before us for what they did. And I suppose you could say, broadly speaking, that's the same as the LGBT community, gaining the benefits of the protests of the generations before them. But then my generation must have benefited from the ones who caused the stink to get the law changed. I mean, I don't remember if that was a big public thing that got the law changed, or, you know, to decriminalise homosexuality in the 60s. I don't know if that was due to a big public outcry, or if it was just a case of modernisation within government.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:19
Doin't know, I was only, yeah, I was what, 12 I think, when they changed the law like that, I was oblivious, really. But I do remember it being in the Daily Express, and reading about it. Strange. And then there was this whole discussion of fact that it wasn't illegal to be lesbian.
Martin Furber 8:41
Well, it never was, and you know, why don't you?
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:42
Well, that supposedly because Queen Victoria was very naive. But who knows what the real reason was.
Martin Furber 8:50
Apparantly, when they were making the laws, they were too frightened to tell there was such a thing as lesbians.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:54
Yeah. So I'm not sure I'm not sure she was really that oblivious. But maybe she was. They rewrite history all the time.
Martin Furber 9:01
I have no idea. Maybe someone wants to comment actually about, if that's an urban myth, or what the truth is behind that or anything else? Yeah, if somebody wants to comment, leave a comment below.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:11
Do you think, do you market yourself intentionally, to the community?
Martin Furber 9:18
No. I stick a rainbow flag on my LinkedIn profile. People who know me know I'm an openly gay man. I don't specify it on any other advertising, because it's almost as if you're trying to put other people off. I welcome absolutely anybody and everybody who needs my help. I do think as in terms of life experience, I do bring benefits to the table that I can offer people. Especially also, I suppose male, gay and bisexual men, because that's the closest fit as it were. I do feel I bring life experience to the table that could be helpful to them. But on the other hand, you know, it's about understanding and empathy.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:11
And you've worked with diversity and inclusion, the buzzword of the day. And that goes, again, inclusion means everybody, so you've worked with the Asian population, or the Black population. Yeah, exactly, it doesn't matter which, other box you think you're in, you can be reasonably sure that a hypnotist will be able to treat you with respect, and help.
Martin Furber 10:33
Absolutely. I don't feel I could treat a gay man any better than you could in terms of treatment, in terms of relatability and life experiences. Obviously, mine will be closer to his than yours would be. But then again, you know, well, I'm gonna say it, the D word! You're a doctor, you could probably treat him a lot better than I could.
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:57
I don't know that that is true my dear. But certainly, it gave me a lot more exposure to a lot of other communities.
Martin Furber 11:04
Yeah, absolutely.
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:05
In a professional sense that I didn't wouldn't have had if I'd been, you know, Secretary or whatever else the school, the school careers person wanted me to do.
Martin Furber 11:15
But, it's like saying, would I be able to treat a heterosexual cisgender woman as well as you could? I'd like to think I could, she may have a preference to seeing a male therapist.
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:25
Let us think about that, that's why I ran down to get my tea before we started this. Weight loss, I have now got a couple of females, purely seeing me because they want to achieve a drop in their weight for various, being stymied by various different things. But I was really concerned about seeing males for that initially, actually, because for females, hormones tie in so much, and the hormones are different men. So um, yeah, I wanted to...You see people for weight loss. Do you see women as well as men?
Martin Furber 12:04
Yeah, absolutely. I see more women than men for weight loss.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:08
Is that because we have been socialised to just think of ourselves as fat permanently? Are these people with significant weight, morbid obesity, or people just want to lose five pounds?
Martin Furber 12:21
I think, no I wouldn't see anybody who just wants to lose five pounds. No, I think from the number of female clients I have, and from my conversations with them, because obviously, you know, you get chatting with everybody, don't you? I think it's nothing to do with gender or sex. It's to do with the fact that I've been there done that and lost the weight with hypnosis. That is the deciding factor, and they want to come to me for that. Again, though, well there's another typical one, would I be able to treat a weight loss client any better than you could? Absolutely not no, but they can relate to me because they know I can relate to them maybe because I was grossly overweight. So maybe they, well, as soon as I start to explain the mechanics behind it...
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:07
You do realise I've lost as much weight as you, I just did it in these peaks and valleys.
Martin Furber 13:14
That's like the one who says giving up smoking is easy - I've done it hundreds of times! But yeah, I think that's I don't think has anything to do with gender. Maybe if I hadn't lost a lot of weight with hypnosis, those female clients would feel less inclined to come to me. I don't know. Maybe they'd feel more comfortable with A N Other hypnotherapist who had lost weight? I think that would be the deciding factor rather than the sex or gender of the therapist on that one.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:46
Yeah, certainly for things like, you know, driving, getting clients for driving or crossing bridges or flying, those things. People, I don't think people even question what other life experience you have. They just want to know that, can you fix this? Can we do it now? Instantly? No, that doesn't work!
Martin Furber 14:06
Yeah. Let's say somebody wanted to come to you for confidence, though, for public speaking. Okay, um, would they look for a hypnotherapist that had done lots of public speaking themselves? Would they look for a hypnotherapist who has a reputation for helping people build confidence in anything? I don't know. We have to get into the mindset of our clients don't we?
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:35
I don't have so many hypnotists around me, I tend to be either the first or second person people call. There aren't that many close-by, I mean, I suppose close-by is relative if you go up to Philadelphia, which is a stone's throw from me, there are quite a few. But yeah, general confidence. I think public speaking is a is a less gendered thing. But confidence in your voice. When you when you talk about public speaking, it's really it's the standing there, and am I going to forget everything I'm going to say. It's like going into an exam, and having people in front of you, I don't see that as particularly gendered. But confidence in one's voice, confidence in being heard. When I would go to run a code. Particularly in my junior days, quite often, I would be initially ignored, while male voices, much more junior to me,
Martin Furber 15:38
Could you just explain what 'Run a code' means.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:40
Oh sorry, when somebody is collapsing, and you have to give orders for resuscitation. Sorry.
Martin Furber 15:48
Thank you, for anybody watching who's not a Doctor. I've never heard that expression before is that an American one?
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:56
Really? Maybe, but it's, I mean, crack a crash or a code is usually then.
Martin Furber 16:03
Yeah, yeah, oh crash I've heard of that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:04
So ifyou walk into a room, generally speaking, there's a lot of noise going on. But there's one voice saying do this, do this, do this, do this. And we're not usually on the body, that doesn't sound very polite does it? Because you kind of stand back and got to look at the whole situation. And, usually, particularly, if you've worked at a hospital more than five minutes, they know who you are. And so they defer to you. Because you can only have, you know, it's like too many chefs, right? You have to have one person seeing what's going on. But when you work in, while you're in training, and and so there's they, they don't necessarily physically recognise you. And when you're learning, and when you're, when you are a new doctor, or nurse for that matter. It can you can sound a bit timid women have a tendency to say please and thank you, even in situations where they're not really asking you to do something, they're telling you to do something. And so those little things, so that kind of confidence, I think might be a more gendered thing. I don't know if men understand that. We've talked about mansplaining. You and I have talked about it. I don't think we've talked about it on this show. But that is a part of it. It's that, this sort of assumption, I'm male, therefore, I am in charge.
Martin Furber 17:24
Yeah, men do that all the time, in lots of situations. But also, don't you feel that when you've got that kind of situation, if a woman were to take the lead and use a strong voice, men, some men would view that as 'Oh, she's being historical'?
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:43
Yes, but in the situation I was describing with the code, once we've established I'm the boss here, then it should, that should go away. You do have to know who who is the highest ranking person in the room for a particular situation. But once that's established, and that's good. I did go upstairs, when I was working ER, fairly early on, one of the paediatricians was down chatting with me in the ER, she got called up to the delivery room for us as C section with a baby in severe distress. I thought, I've nothing else to do, I'll come up with you. So I did. And so I was gowned up, the labour and delivery floor didn't know the ER floor at all. They didn't recognise me gowned up anyway, because I wasn't even wearing glasses then. And, at the end of it, I took off my cap and gown. So sorry, can I just sign the form. Oh, you're Dr. Billen. Yeah, I'm Dr. Billen. Didn't you hear me? Yeah, we just realised you knew what you were doing, so it was fine.
Martin Furber 18:45
Yeah, done it once or twice!
Denise Billen-Mejia 18:47
Yeah.
Martin Furber 18:48
Getting back on topic, though, about sort of gender and sex and LGBT and this and that and the other. I don't specifically advertise for that community. I just let people know that I identify under the rainbow flag, bearing the rainbow flag on my LinkedIn profile. I suppose, it's also there to put off anybody who may be homophobic. Because that's, that's something that...
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:11
Yeah, you don't want somebody walking in and saying, oh, no, I can't see you and leave again, because who needs that?
Martin Furber 19:17
Well, it's not just that, I wouldn't want anybody in there spouting out homophobic comments or misogynist ones or racist ones. So we tend to find a rainbow flag will put off bigots.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:29
Or maybe, would it make you a target?
Martin Furber 19:33
I'd like to think not.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:35
Do you get lost? Your little troll, from your first foray into writing articles for newspapers, which is coming along splendidly. You did get a little bit, but that wasn't that wasn't, that was just, who the heck are you kind of thing.
Martin Furber 19:50
Yeah, that was that was more of a thing against therapists than anything else. So sexuality didn't come into it whatsoever.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:00
What situations though, do you think would be better served, you would be a better fit other than client comfort, because obviously, they have to be, you have to build rapport, they have to know that they can trust you. And of course, they probably can assume that with you, more than they will assume that with me.
Martin Furber 20:23
Yeah, perhaps if it was to do with insecurities in relationship issues, would have a better understanding of how their relationships work than perhaps somebody who isn't gay would.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:38
How about this more subtle stuff, like say somebody's coming to you because their career is going sideways, and they think that they need to change the way they relate to their boss. I'm trying to think of what would somebody come to a hypnotist for? But do you think that if that were a gay client, do you think any of their previous story might be colouring it that I may not see?
Martin Furber 21:03
Um, well, you personally probably would see it, given your experiences and previous career. So let's, let's say A N Other hypnotherapist may not see, yeah, in terms of they may not be completely au fait with the processes that most people who live under the rainbow flag go through, again, the realisation, the self acceptance, the self loathing, at times, not everybody.
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:32
There's also the wearing down microaggression stuff that happened. I mean, I tend to think that tends to be a little over. Every time somebody asked me where I'm from, I'm not offended, partly because I'm white, and I have an English accent. So clearly, they're just asking me where I'm from. But a lot of people do feel that question, are you asking me because you're genuinely interested in geography? Or are you asking me because you don't think I belong here? You know, there's that kind of question.
Martin Furber 21:59
Yeah, so people in America don't think you're American. So they ask you, where are you from? I mean, if you walk, if you walked around over here, people will just assume you're American or Canadian.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:09
Well, they ask me, they think I'm American, because I sound funny to them now. Yeah.
Martin Furber 22:13
You sound American to me. It's only now and again, when I listen to some of the words, you say, and it's like, no, no, that's definitely British!
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:23
It was one of my mom's biggest fears when I came to live here. She wouldn't be able to understand her grandchildren.
Martin Furber 22:33
Sorry, I lost me thread now! As we always do, because we go all over the place! In terms of understanding what people have been through, or things that can pop up. Yeah, it's that, it all depends really on the individual, what experience they had in their coming out, in their acceptance. Because there is a thing that said quite often, you continue to come out for the rest of your life.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:58
Every time you meet a new person, surely?
Martin Furber 23:00
Basically yeah. Every time you meet a new person, change job this, that, the other. Whereas these days, it's like, well, up until very, very recently, these days, it's just no big deal anymore. It's like, for example, when Nick started his new job, on his first day, he was asked, Are you married? He said, Yeah, I'm married to a man, he's called Martin. And it was like, okay, no big deal.
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:26
I think the little story you told me the other day was very sweet.
Martin Furber 23:31
Oh, yeah, I know, but that may just give somebody's details away. So.
Denise Billen-Mejia 23:38
Okay, we won't talk about it. Yeah, there are lots, there are lots of little assumptions that we make as people.
Martin Furber 23:47
Yeah. But basically, somebody thought because it was two men in the house, we must eat terribly because there's no woman to cook for us. And then sent lunch, which was the loveliest loveliest thing to do. It absolutely was the loveliest thing to do. It was like well, they made a completely incorrect assumption, for all the right reasons.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:09
Exactly.
Martin Furber 24:10
For all the right reasons, and that's it. And that's the thing these days about getting touchy over things. Or when you say micro aggressions, there's... I don't know, maybe I'm just not that touchy, in my old age. You know, very, very few things would bother me. For example, usually when people ask questions, it's from a place of wanting to know more.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:37
Yeah, microaggressions usually at the like, oh, I'm losing words today. It's to say things like, you know, Barack Obama's very well spoken. Well, one would hope.
Martin Furber 24:57
Well, he was the President!
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:57
Not anymore unfortunately. But But Mmm, those kinds of things. There's sort of it's yes, it's true, but it's pointed out because of other traits clearly in his case, because it was black.
Martin Furber 25:09
Yeah, so expecting him to be Jive Talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:12
Yeah, exactly. So, but sometimes, that's just general, genuinely people really do miss the fact that that guy could put a sentence together. He never lost his words, while he did speak a little slowly.
Martin Furber 25:26
Yeah, did you ever see the arguments though, about him, using hypnotic language in the way he does his speeches?
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:35
And so he should.
Martin Furber 25:36
Yeah, and when you say hypnotic language, in that sense, it was as in getting people's attention, keeping their attention and keeping them focused. And of course, he was very, very good at that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:59
So, the overall feeling is that you or I are equals.
Martin Furber 26:03
Yeah, absolutely!
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:04
Some people might prefer to talk to me, some people might prefer to talk to you. And that's fine.
Martin Furber 26:08
Yeah. Well, you're far more learned than I ever will be.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:12
Yeah, unless they've got jewellery questions!
Martin Furber 26:19
But yeah, it's, how can I say... Yeah, life experiences. But then, I don't know, if a woman came to you, because she was lacking confidence, and not feeling yourself anymore, and feeling anxious after the menopause. Who's she's going to come to, you or me? She's going to instantly relate to you, she will know that you can relate to that situation. And therefore you will be the best therapist for. So yeah, it is people, people pick people anyway, don't they?
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:54
But once the person has self selected the therapist, then the issue is, is does the therapist ever feel that they should not be treating somebody? I shouldn't say treating, helping somebody, helping. Because they want to be able to understand something? And would telling somebody, I really, I don't understand, I just can't get my head around what you're saying. Because that sounds like you just prove. even though it isn't, it's just honestly, I don't understand don't understand why it's an issue.
Martin Furber 27:30
Yeah, well put it this way we are, over here, in the memberships I have, we are not allowed to refuse. And we use the word treatment, to refuse treatment to somebody, you know, on any kind of discriminatory basis. But again...
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:48
Yeah, but that's discriminating by blocks of clients to say I don't see people who are gay. But if you met, if you had a client in front of you, and you feel you're not the right fit, It's alright to go both ways.
Martin Furber 28:01
Yeah, I would say so. But you know...
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:03
But how would you coach if the if the client? How can you suggest that the client seek somebody else? Can you have another person in your pocket that you could send them to, if I had a gay client, who I felt would be better served by you, it would be pretty easy, I would just send you a quick message and ask them if they'd like to meet my friend Martin who'd probably understand it really well. Not everybody has a Martin, well, if you're watching this you have because they know how to contact you. But those are the kinds of questions I think, I think we should as hypnotists, realise that, although we may be very good generalists, there are some people who are just better in certain areas. Not better, just a better fit.
Martin Furber 28:50
That happens in the medical profession, doesn't it? You have specialists?
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:53
Yeah, exactly.
Martin Furber 28:53
People specialise in certain fields, if somebody came to me, and their particular issue was something I felt another therapist I knew, would have a better understanding of, yeah, I would say that to them. I would like to recommend you to somebody who is more specialist in your requirements. I don't see anything wrong with that. In fact, I see that as good practice. Yeah, I think so.
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:18
I think we can try to sum this up. So any of you are confused by this conversation, you can write to Martin and ask for clarification. Unless you're a hormonal female,
Martin Furber 29:30
I think, what I'd like to round off with today with is to both say we both sort of share that view of inclusion means everyone and we will both welcome anyone and everyone from any culture, any sexuality, any orientation, any whatever.
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:43
Any religion.
Martin Furber 29:44
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I'll see you on the next one Denise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:51
Bye bye.
Denise Billen-Mejia 30:00
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Martin Furber 30:16
If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
