Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis, and the benefits it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor turned consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:35
Okay, let's get on with the show. And this week, we've got a guest, Denise, I'm going to ask him to introduce himself, Dan Roberts. Hi, Dan. Thank you.
Dan Roberts 0:45
Hello to both of you. Very happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me on. So I am a psychotherapist based in London. I'm an advanced accredited schema therapist, trainer and supervisor and internal family systems trained therapist. So and yeah, I'm a psychotherapist working in private practice in the UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:07
May I ask a question right up front for the for the American listeners and viewers. What is a schema therapist?
Dan Roberts 1:17
So what is a schema or what is your schema therapist?
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:20
Either way, I mean, I could probably Intuit what schema means. But tell me what it means in your world.
Dan Roberts 1:28
Let's start with schema and then that will lead on to what's the schema therapy.
Denise Billen-Mejia 1:32
Sure.
Dan Roberts 1:32
A schema is a neural network in the brain that holds all sorts of information. And what I always say to my clients is we have 1000s and 1000s of schemas in the brain, which are very, very useful. And we don't want to get rid of them at all. So because your brain is always trying to save energy, it creates these shortcuts for things that we do a lot, right. So when I went to make this lovely cup of coffee, before I came on, I didn't have to get out my coffee manual. And you know, I was just like making coffee, and I made the coffee. So that's a schema, right? That's a coffee making schema in my brain that holds all of that information. So I don't have to think about it every time I do it. So we have all of these very helpful or the worst sort of neutral schemas in the brain. But we also have eighteen, what are called early, maladaptive schemas. And these are kind of blueprints or templates, of things that happened to us repeatedly as children, that was stressful in some way. So for example, the probably the most common schema would be defectiveness. And that's like the low self esteem schema, you know, that's the one where I feel like I'm good enough. Other people are smarter than me, you know, that kind of thing. And that might come from repeatedly being told that I was stupid, or lazy, or no good by my parents or a teacher. So it's these very painful ways of thinking and feeling that develop through repeated stressful experiences as kids. And then when you're an adult with a 56 year old, like me, you have the schemas kind of very hard-wired in to the brain. And then if something stressful happens, which reminds me of the earliest stressful thing, the schema of fires up, and then I think, in a kind of distorted way, and I have lots of negative self-beliefs. And I feel very intense emotions. And that leads to behaviour, right? We call it schema driven behaviour.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:38
Mike, yes, it is.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:40
It also sounds a lot like quote, theory of mind, which is when I explain what hypnosis is, we're looking at the things that you just quote, know, because you don't have to examine them and think about them, this 'X' happens, I will react by 'Y' without having to think. And if you had to think about every single thing, like making the coffee, walking down the stairs, making the bed, whatever, you wouldn't get out the house in the morning, you'd be stuck thinking through all those things.
Dan Roberts 4:09
Right, so we need those schemas or whatever we call it in the brain.
Denise Billen-Mejia 4:12
Right!
Dan Roberts 4:12
They are useful. But there are these 18, which are tricky for us in some way. So for example, there's one around abandonment, there's one around emotional deprivation or emotional neglect. There's a failure schema. You know, there's all these different schemas, which, which we have because we had painful stuff, usually when we're kids.
Martin Furber 4:34
Dan, oh, sorry! I was just gonna say, it reminds me of how I explain the long term effects of bullying to people. In my work, I talk a lot about a metaphorical stress bucket that we have. And I always say to people, if somebody was bullied as a child repeatedly, called a name, for example, say somebody who was gay for example, always getting called rude names. In their adult life, when life can be going along quite nicely, and they suddenly hit a stressful patch, and that stress bucket gets full, the voices of their bullies will come back and taunt them, it'll become the inner narrative.
Dan Roberts 5:13
Very, very similar kind of therapy, isn't it really. Yeah, and bullying, you know, I think we're gonna go on and talk about trauma in our discussions today, but bullying is very traumatic, I think it's really under appreciated how traumatic it can be for children.
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:34
Because children haven't got all that much positive to balance it. If you get bullied at work, when you're in your 20s, and you've had a pretty decent life, so far, you're going to be able to explain it, that person has issues. But for a child, they, trust the people who are looking after them. And the bullying, of course, can happen from slightly older children very, very rare does a younger child bully older child, I suppose that can happen.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:06
So that was, was that the first type of therapy got involved with?
Dan Roberts 6:16
So the first type of therapy was actually CBT - cognitive behaviour therapy, which I think is a fantastic model. And I was, I've always worked in private practice, I've never worked in the NHS, it's always been working for myself. So I did, I was a CBT therapist for about six or seven years. I think the thing about CBT is, I really think it's a fantastic model. And it can be life changing for people. I know it has its critics, and people knock it as a model, which is fine. But in my opinion, it's a really, really effective model for most people. But there is a, you know, certain section of people that that don't really get on with it, but don't like it, it doesn't fit for them. A common thing that you hear is like I know, I'm thinking differently. But I don't feel any different. You know, so it's quite as effective cognitively, but not really emotionally. And that's what led me to move into actually trained in compassion, focused therapy first. So that's what's called the third wave cognitive therapy. So that's a kind of a newer version of CBT, which is a really lovely model and brings in lots of Buddhism, particularly Tibetan, Buddhist ideas. Lots of evolutionary psychology stuff, which I think is great. It's a really, really great model. But I just still felt like I needed more. And that led me to schema therapy, which is a form of cognitive therapy, but it's very integrative. So it integrates CBT, Gestalt therapy and psychodynamic therapies. So I never answered your whats a schema therapist question. So maybe I can now.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:03
Now you've told us what a schema is.
Dan Roberts 8:06
Yeah, we've got schema's done haven't we? So schema therapy is an attachment based model, which I think is really important. Developed for people with trauma histories, basically, it's developed for people with a diagnosis of BPD borderline personality disorder. I'm personally not a huge fan, with personality disorder diagnoses. Again, there's a big debate about that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:31
It's like the newest one over here, the newest one over here, everybody, not actual therapists, just everybody is diagnosing people as narcissists. It's just, that's the latest flavour. And that and, and the behaviour disorders are our problem. Personality disorders, I beg your pardon. All of them are a problem. But really, you need to be qualified to make a diagnosis. And so much of it is searching on Google Oh, that I think that fits me or my cousin or uncle. And, people acquire labels. I need to put you in a box. So we can understand you, I'll put you in that box.
Dan Roberts 9:15
And maybe particularly in the States, I think seems to be more diagnostic. And it's a bit more medication heavy, I think in the States than here, although we're kind of catching up with that, you know. So, yeah, well, you know, I know that some people find these diagnoses very, very helpful. And they can also help you to access services, which, as Martin knows, in this country is very difficult for a lot of people. So they can be very useful. I'm not against them. I personally just think there are more kind of nuanced ways of describing problems. particularly once you understand trauma and the impact of trauma on people.
Denise Billen-Mejia 9:54
Yeah, can you? I think, can you, we're going to go down a very, very long rabbit hole here, but trauma, we used to think was, okay this was shell shocked people from the First World War, these are these are people came out of Vietnam, there must be a British version for that. And it was one, one or many large traumas, things that everybody on the planet would recognise as trauma. But really a lot of us these days are working with smaller but multiple traumas. Is that the kind of work that you do?
Dan Roberts 10:28
So I specialise in complex trauma and which is almost always childhood trauma. So those kinds of traumas. Yeah, so if you look at the DSM, you know, the one of the two diagnostic Bibles, in the DSM the only trauma diagnosis is PTSD. So that's the thing that, interestingly, to me, only 30% of people develop PTSD after one of these big traumas. Right. So I think it's very interesting that 70% of people don't develop PTSD after that, but that's maybe later discussion. So you know, yes, you have a car crash, or you are in a terror attack or an earthquake or a mugging or, you know, some, one very traumatic experience a single incident trauma, and then you can develop PTSD. The ICD, which is the WHO, we've got lots of alphabet soup already! The WHO's version of the DSM, they add CPTSD, right, complex PTSD as another diagnosis. And that, I think, is a very useful diagnosis. But, again, you're probably getting the feeling I'm not a huge fan of diagnoses these days. And I think we need to broaden our understanding of trauma. And Gabor Mate, I think has done particularly a lot of great work around this. And really, what he says is trauma is something an experience that is completely overwhelming for us, and overwhelms our capacity for coping with it. So, you know, we kind of before we came on air, we had a little chat about bullying and bullying, I think is is a very traumatic thing for a lot of people. But it probably wouldn't meet the diagnostic criteria, right, for either the DSM or ICD. But if you if you're really badly bullied, and you're in fear of your life, because it's terrifying. And it completely overwhelms your ability to cope with it, and it changes your personality, you know, and really damages your self esteem. Well, how can we say that's not traumatic?
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:36
So, what is what is your approach to those people? I assume these people are self-referring? Or do you get referrals from private practices.
Dan Roberts 12:48
A bit of both, so self-referring or from GPS or psychiatrists, as well.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:53
OK.
Dan Roberts 12:54
I really like this idea of attachment based therapy. So all of my therapy is long term. And, to me, to me, most traumas that we're talking about these kinds of small t traumas, right, these complex traumas these repeated experiences in childhood, almost always happen in relationships. So people are wounded or hurt, usually by the very people who are supposed to keep them safe and protect them. Right? And we see this over and over again, don't worry, I'm sure you do, too, you know that. A family member was the person that really hurt the child. And not always, of course, because it can happen and it could be at school, it could be.
Denise Billen-Mejia 13:43
It could also be you know, a parent who's not believing the child, upset about being bullied or sexually assaulted or a number of things. Just Shush, which is another trauma on top of the previous one.
Dan Roberts 13:58
Absolutely, and Gabor Mate again talks a lot about that, you know, the kind of the loneliness of trauma, right that nobody supports us. Nobody believes us, and that makes it way more traumatic. But there's a strong argument to say that if we've been hurt in relationship, we need to be healed in relationships. And so one of the things we try to do in schema therapy, is to provide a corrective emotional experience, meaning, let's say somebody was shut out every day by their dad, right? And the dad's telling them you're useless and stupid and you're a waste of space. And your brother's so much smarter than you and why can't you be more like him? Right, that classic kind of story? Well, he's been he's been wounded by his dad, has been hurt in relationships. I think he needs to heal in a relationship. And we try to really provide, try to meet those needs that were unmet for him as a child. Right? So I'm going to be extra warm and extra encouraging and supportive, and really trying to help boost his self esteem and self worth. And to me, that's a lovely kind of goal, you know, that can happen in the relationship where we can correct what happened to them when they were a kid. So that's a big part of what we do.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:24
Do you ever work with families collectively who have that issue? I mean, the shouting father probably didn't have a great childhood either.
Dan Roberts 15:34
Right.
Denise Billen-Mejia 15:34
And so will be repetitive.
Dan Roberts 15:35
Right, the trauma is getting passed down generation to generation, which we see so much. I don't work with families, per se, I've often had. It's part of the model that we can bring in certain partners for a few sessions, if that's helpful. I've certainly have brought parents in for a couple of sessions, if we think that's useful. I'm not like a family therapist. So I don't work with the whole group.
Martin Furber 16:04
I'm riveted to this Dan! I forget I'm supposed to be interviewing you as well. I'm riveted to this. I like the sound of this. It sounds like a very gentle therapy. I like, this is what I like with hypnotherapy, it's gentle.
Denise Billen-Mejia 16:18
Actually, were one of the things that I wonder about, we've often spoken about the fact that in hypnosis, yes, we need to know what the initiation, what the problem is. And if there's an overriding thing, of course, but once that conversation has been had, we can just move forward and deal with the specific complaint the client has. How much trauma do they have to revisit in your in the therapy that you use?
Dan Roberts 16:50
So I think one of the problems we often see with trauma treatment. So if you have a trauma, that's let's say you had a sexual assault when you're a child, you know, you're abused, which is awful, but sadly all too common.
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:07
Very common.
Dan Roberts 17:08
Much, much more common, we know this now from the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study, for example, don't we that showed us much, much more common than we thought previously. And then, you get older, and you're obviously still really struggling and it's affecting your relationships and your self worth, and you know, all sorts of things. You think I need therapy, which you probably do, and you go and you have a kind of standard counselling or a standard psychotherapy, we actually think that's a really bad idea for people with a big trauma history. Because it can be re- traumatising, just to talk a lot about what happened to you. Right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 17:47
Exactly.
Dan Roberts 17:48
You guys are nodding vigorously.
Martin Furber 17:50
Absolutely, big time. Yeah.
Dan Roberts 17:53
And again, this is from very well meaning kind, nice, therapist's doing their best, you know, but just talking a lot about, for example, the abuse, it just retriggers, all that stuff, it brings those memories flooding back, the person leaves the session. And then what do they do? You know, they're flooded with all this old, horrible material, right? So we do work with trauma in a very careful way. That's when we do a lot of what's called imagery rescripting. So, probably a bit like what you do in hypnosis, I'd imagine that so we would sort of get the person to go back, and then depending on the trauma, we would more or less kind of run through the experience once and then I intervene. I would come into that image. And I'm going to protect the child from the abusive person or I'm going to take them out of there, or I'm going to bring in the police or you know, whatever we need to do to make them feel safe in the image. So we do work with trauma memories, but in a very structured, careful way. That doesn't re-traumatise.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:02
So, in a way you can rewrite the ending of a traumatic situation, the way you're describing that to me. This is really interesting, because we were having a conversation last week, when we were saying about every time we recall a memory, we do alter it slightly whenever we recollect anything. It led us, led Denise and I down a rabbit hole of saying well, is that because we're trying to actually rewrite it and change it, if it was something traumatic? That was last week. wasn't it Denise? That conversation?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:36
Just went out this year, this week.
Dan Roberts 19:38
Yeah. I mean, the idea of re-scripting, right, meaning we want to change the story change the narrative of what happened.
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:47
But of course, it's also from, I used to do a lot of physical exams with children who had been sexually abused for court. This is 20 odd years ago. The problem with things like Hypnosis, that people won't accept testimony from the child after they've had those kinds of therapies. Do you know if that will be the case with the approach you have? We know that every time we're looking at a memory we change it a little bit, obviously. And false memory is a thing, if you're not very, very, very careful.
Dan Roberts 20:22
Right, and I think, you know, I think maybe we can talk a bit about memory now, can't we?
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:26
Sure.
Denise Billen-Mejia 20:45
Lots of little pockets.
Dan Roberts 20:26
I think there's a misunderstanding people have is that when they remember something, it's like, they get their iPhone and press record, right, and they've recorded an exact version of what happened. And then that recording gets stored in their brain. And then when they want to remember, they'd like press play on the iPhone, and then you get the exact recording, right? Memory doesn't work like that at all. So, especially trauma memories. You know, trauma memories are very tricky, because, number one, they tend to get recorded as implicit memory rather than explicit memory. Meaning. It's why people with PTSD get flashbacks. Because when you record that trauma, you don't record the whole story, because you're probably dissociating and detaching a lot and your brain is shutting down, in all sorts of ways to protect you from the overwhelm, right? Of what's happening. So very often, what you get is these kind of fragments of memory, you know. So, Janina Fisher, who is somebody that I really like and big expert in the trauma field. She talks about, like emotional memories, right, or somatic memories. So we're suddenly a trauma survivor is flooded with anxiety. And there's nothing going on in their environment to make them anxious. Right. So that's a fragment of that implicit memory that's been recorded, but in a very, not recording the whole story kind of way. And then when you recall the memory, even if we recall a normal memory, I believe that your brain has to kind of reconstruct that.
Dan Roberts 21:26
Right, lots of little pockets in your memory system. So yeah, so it's really important that I say that doesn't mean that we don't believe people when they talk about trauma memories. And there has been such a fierce debate around this kind of false memory, problem hasn't there? I know. So I always just start from the premise of I just believe my clients. If they tell me they have been abused, I believe it.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:40
When I use the term false memory, thinking from a, excuse me if there are any attorneys out there, thinking of it from a legal sense. Because everybody confabulates, we need to make sense of the world. And so we will make lots of little boxes and try and make sense of it. So it can, if the therapist who is working with the patient is not extremely careful, they would be remembering what they just explained to you because it made sense in that moment. And they think about it sometimes as a discrete memory, so separated from the initial attack happened. So it is, it's very frustrating to me, I have no desire to work in the criminal area. But, since I used to, it is frustrating to me that they've said no, you can't use hypnosis. There's a couple of states that will allow hypnosis evidence introduced, but most of them won't. But they now will use what's called the cognitive interview. Which is pretty much the same thing as hypnosis, if you actually watch the sessions. And it's hard to know what one can answer because obviously, people who are perpetuating criminal trauma, I'm talking criminal here, not the everyday traumas of bad behaviour, you know, being a parent and losing your sense, sometimes, and screaming at a child. Based probably on trauma, you had! Those things are just, how do we figure out where how to retrieve those memories?
Dan Roberts 23:02
It's a really good question.
Denise Billen-Mejia 24:25
And neither of us has the answer.
Dan Roberts 24:29
I don't work in the criminal area, I'm afraid, but all I would say is that my strong hunches. Nobody's ever told me about a traumatic memory, that hasn't later turned out to be true. I'd say probably the opposite is more likely that people have all sorts of memories that they've repressed or buried or locked away in some cupboard in their mind, you know, because they're too hot. They're too frightening. They're too overwhelming. And that's very, very common. I think, you know, one of the things that I'm passionate about saying is that I just think there are so many fantastic models of healing available now. And I really encourage people to shop around, you know, to kind of do some research and find something that resonates with them. Because there's no, and I'm a big fan of integrating lots of different models, as well, as I'm happy to talk about that. You know, so for me, I don't ever think like, oh, this is kind of the holy grail of healing, you know, like, I just think there's so many brilliant ways that we have now science backed, neuroscience informed ways of doing it.
Martin Furber 25:38
Mm hmm. Have you studied anything on the default mode network? About what's happening in our mind when we are relaxing, when we're asleep? When we're actually relaxing? And trying to clear our minds? Have you read anything on that?
Dan Roberts 25:56
I've read a bit. I'll quickly get into deep water if you ask me too many questions. But, I know that in mindfulness based therapies, that's a really important idea, right? It's like, what happens to your brain when you're not paying attention to something? Your mind wandering?
Martin Furber 26:14
Yeah, I know we've talked about it, obviously, with the advent of EEGs, and the availability of such equipment now just for you know, for regular therapists, rather than it being really expensive stuff that only the hospitals have, they can actually see what's happening in the mind, you know, with the brainwaves when we are in that state of relaxation, and focused attention. So that kind of thing fascinates me. I'm not too clued up on all the technicalities of it. But I find it fascinating.
Dan Roberts 26:50
I think neuroscience is unbelievably fascinating, isn't it? I just find because I didn't have a scientific education. And maybe Denise, this is much more in your area, given your history, but I feel like I learn stuff and I forget it, and then I have to relearn it. And then I forget it. So it doesn't kind of stick always in the brain.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:11
And we're all getting older.
Dan Roberts 27:13
Yeah, indeed.
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:15
So, what you've now practised, you've had this private practice for how long?
Dan Roberts 27:21
14 years?
Denise Billen-Mejia 27:24
Before we jumped on the call you were talking about the next thing, are you going to continue to practice for a while?
Dan Roberts 27:30
I think I'll always have a therapy practice. I'm just looking to reduce that a bit. I really love doing therapy, but especially if you're working in a complex trauma field. Honestly, it can be pretty heavy. And it can take a toll, you know. And so I've always kind of had this idea of like, well, I love this work. But how can I pivot to do something, which is a bit less demanding of me. And so I do more and more supervision. Now I have, I think nine supervisees at the moment. So that's...
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:05
necessarily,
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:06
I don't think it's necessarily less work. It's just, there's less emotion of your own emotion that's there. You've got to be careful when you're working with people.
Dan Roberts 28:15
Yeah, I feel like with supervision, it's more intellectually demanding for me and not emotionally demanding. So I really like that. And I'm more and more moving now into teaching and writing. So I've literally just been commissioned to write a self-help book, which I'm hoping will be published next year, we're still in the kind of early stages, but looking good, so that's very exciting.
Denise Billen-Mejia 28:40
Do you have a working title yet?
Dan Roberts 28:42
I'm probably not allowed to say what the book is. I can certainly say the beginning is healing from childhood trauma. So that's the focus of the book,
Martin Furber 28:51
So, when that comes out, you're gonna have to come back on and tell us about it.
Dan Roberts 28:55
Thank you, I'd love to do that. Yeah, so that's really exciting. And so you know, more and more writing, and then more and more teaching. So I'm more, you know, I have done a lot of teaching and webinars and workshops, I've taught mental health professionals, but I guess I'm more and more focusing on kind of teaching the public and maybe resonating a bit with what you do so much, Martin, which is sort of sharing these really important ideas, right about mental health, about healing.
Martin Furber 29:27
Oh you mean about the newspaper articles?
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:30
Yeah, but also with the with the with the teaching work that you're doing with the other group, PAC.
Martin Furber 29:38
Yeah, becasue I'm an MHFA. England instructor. So I teach people to be Mental Health First Aiders. Which I've actually really enjoyed doing that. Because it does bring a lot of the information out to the masses as it were, so people know more about these things and just basically so people can realise with a lot of things, a lot of issues are common. The amount of people who realise when, or the amount of people who think because they're having a bad time and can't sort of put a title to how they're feeling, or even vocabularise, verbalise how they're feeling. You know, I hate to use word normal. I like to use usualise things, some of the terminology for people, that's the way I put it. But I really enjoy teaching the mental health first aid courses, far more than I ever thought I would do.
Dan Roberts 30:36
And I think it's so important, isn't it to get that information out to people that wouldn't maybe come for therapy, or wouldn't be reading self help books, or wouldn't listen to podcasts, you know that.
Denise Billen-Mejia 30:47
Admittedly, I have not lived in the UK for terribly long time. But it was very familiar, even 20 years ago, if you expressed to anybody that you were feeling a little down, for whatever reason, you usually got 'Buck up'.
Martin Furber 31:02
Yeah, snap out of it!
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:04
Yeah. So hopefully, we can have more nuanced conversations with people. What's the problem?
Martin Furber 31:11
Well can you believe it we've reached the end of the episode?
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:15
Yes, because it happens every week! We're always in the middle of a conversation. Do you have any parting words you'd like to give us sir?
Dan Roberts 31:22
I mean, really, just to say thank you so much, again, for having me on. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you guys. And yeah, I could talk for seven days straight about all of this stuff. So it's just so fascinating, isn't it.
Martin Furber 31:36
You have to come on again, Dan, especially when your book comes out, you must come back on and tell us about it.
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:44
When you're allowed to tell us the title.
Dan Roberts 31:47
When it's not top secret.
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:57
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember, this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, always consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one. If you found this episode useful, you can apply for free continuing professional development or CME credits. Using the link provided in the show notes. Feel free to contact either of us through the links in the show notes. Join us again next week.
