Denise Billen-Mejia 0:07
Welcome to Two hypnotherapists talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia in Delaware, USA.
Martin Furber 0:13
And me Martin Furber in Preston UK.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:16
This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about fascinating subject of hypnosis, and the benefits it offers.
Martin Furber 0:24
I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and psychotherapist,
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:27
I'm a retired medical doctor, and consulting hypnotist.
Martin Furber 0:31
We are two hypnotherapists talking.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:34
So let's get on with the episode.
Martin Furber 0:35
So let's get on with the show indeed, Denise. And we've got a guest with us for this episode.
Denise Billen-Mejia 0:40
We do, a person that I've spoken to a couple of times because I'm working my way through one of her, I wrote about, not book, courses. It's a course really isn't that Yeah. So this is my new friend C Lee, who is an organiser. And if that sounds a bit odd to people, we think that that really is very adjacent to what we do, as hypnotists. We help people clean up the clutter in their heads, and all the little voices that they don't need to listen to anymore. And so, C Lee, welcome.
C Lee Cawley 1:16
Well, thank you so much for having me. And Denise, I was thrilled when you and Martin invited me on this because I do think that there's a huge correlation between the clutter in our homes and the clutter in our minds. And you know, the self talk, that is that is enormous. Martin, what were you saying before we came on about the kitchen drawer?
Martin Furber 1:36
Oh, yeah, whenever I speak with people and they're experiencing procrastination, I will suggest that they clean their kitchen knowing full well that they don't want to. And, I'll say if you can't clean the kitchen, get that drawer, the one that you always throw the clutter in. the one that you keep adding to, get that tip it upside down, empty the contents out, give the drawer a good clean, put everything back in there that you need. And everything you don't, throw it away. And you will feel so much better.
C Lee Cawley 2:05
And it's like a 10 or 15 minute exercise, right? People always explore, expand in their mind. Well, I find that they either expand or contract, they mostly people think that just getting, you know organised, is going to take so much longer. And you'll say how long do you think it's gonna take you to do that junk drawer> And they're like, oh, an hour? And I'm like, okay, set the timer. And then 12 minutes later, it's done. Right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 2:34
But then how much time, have they wasted thinking about it? Yes
C Lee Cawley 2:37
Thinking, about it. And I do think that sometimes, you know, the self taught like now it's no longer the junk drawer. Now it's the utility drawer. So you are using, putting things in there that you need batteries, you know, flashlight, pens, pencils, what but its utility, and kind of just reframing, what you're calling it sometimes makes a big difference.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:02
That's very definitely what we do.
C Lee Cawley 3:03
Yeah, reframe makes.
Martin Furber 3:06
Absolutely, how you reframe things makes a world of difference how you think about it, even changing it from a negative word like junk to a positive word.
C Lee Cawley 3:14
Kike utility, right? Those are things I'm using, it's not junk, it's things I'm using. Don't put anything in there that you're not.
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:21
So don't put the spent batteries, don't put it in the pens from the bank that don't work anymore.
C Lee Cawley 3:28
Exactly, exactly. So this is what I love. So have you worked with, specifically, have you worked with people who have this organisation as an impediment? And have you used hypnotism to help them?
Denise Billen-Mejia 3:44
Yes, but not in the way, not as detailed as the stuff you do. I feel like C Lee, can you come to my house and fix it?
C Lee Cawley 3:54
Which I did for 20 years, I went into people's homes and put on my knee pads and actually worked with them. Sometimes without them. Some people would just like magic wand, just do it. And you know, I'd go in and do it. And I loved it. It was absolutely fabulous. I was, I started my business in 2003. I became a certified professional organiser in 2008. There's only 400 of us worldwide. And it really truly was my life's passion. Then of course, we had the pandemic, and everything changed and I literally legally couldn't go into people's homes, right, we were not allowed. And so that was when I, you know, did a little pivot as they say, and thought to myself, I'm getting a bit older and I want to do things that can change more than the people I can drive or fly to right. When I developed my course which I know you're working through. And it's so much fun because I'm not doing the work. My students are doing the work I'm...
Denise Billen-Mejia 5:03
Which is of course where it has to happen.
C Lee Cawley 5:06
And you're facilitating changes as well. But it's they're actually making those big changes on their own. And that is, I feel so much more powerful and long lasting. Do you feel the same about the work that you do with people?
C Lee Cawley 5:21
Yeah, yes. Actually, there were a couple of things that occurred to me as you're talking. One is, of the people I've helped, it's probably hoarders, I mean, not loads of them, but a couple of people who, and it's usually because they hoard certain kinds of things because of certain things they have in their past. But also, it isn't, it's one of, both of us, work with, let's fix this little thing. And then it makes it easier to fix this little thing. If you go in and just look, you have an organised house, it won't stay that way, unless you're the one that's done the work.
C Lee Cawley 5:56
Yeah, yes. Yeah, I find that that is so true. So this is interesting. So like, when you talk about working with people with hoarding disorder, so often, there will be a huge loss in the past, the death of a child, or a broken heart, right? And so what they're doing is holding on to things that they can control, because they can't control other people, departing or emotions. So with your hypnotism, how do you? I'm just fascinated to know a little bit more about how it works.
C Lee Cawley 6:33
You have to invite us to your podcast, and we'll talk about hypnotism!
C Lee Cawley 6:38
I don't have a podcast, but I just.
Denise Billen-Mejia 6:40
Oh, we'll work on it!
C Lee Cawley 6:43
I think it's absolutely fascinating, because I agree those types of, like making a small change. Recently, and in our group, we've did this thing called the 10 Minute triumph. So just every day just making a 10 minute incremental change, right. And then people realise at the end of a month, that's 300 minutes, that's, you know, five hours.
C Lee Cawley 7:12
And that's it. It's not scary. If it's 10 minutes, anybody could do anything.
C Lee Cawley 7:17
Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. No, I think I love that. I want to hear more from you about the correlation, though. I'm just so curious.
Martin Furber 7:28
The similarities are uncanny C Lee, because what you're talking about, the small increments this that and the other. In the other the kind of therapy I do, it's small steps all the way. It's, you know, one more thing, that the main thing that stuck out to me immediately, is the difference in the part of the journey that the clients are in. Between whether they would contact yourself or myself, because with yourself, your clients, I'm guessing approach you because it's, 'I want you to help me organise my house, my life, whatever', with me, clients will contact me for whatever issue say, procrastination. And that will lead to a similar conversation about organisation. So there is a different part of the journey, I would suggest. But yeah, the correlation is unbelievable. It's the same thing in terms of encouraging and empowering people to tidy their mind or tidy the house. What do you think, Denise?
C Lee Cawley 8:24
I agree. I agree. I think that neither Martin nor I are terribly keen on. You need to know what the core, the basic cause is, but you don't need people to relive the trauma.
C Lee Cawley 8:39
Right!
Denise Billen-Mejia 8:39
While they're doing it. But we do need to have some idea of what the direction is. So you'd need to know if somebody is hoarding because they're following what their mom did, who was following what her mother did, because she came out of the depression, therefore, you hang on to everything if it might be useful. Or some other reason that there was a lot of poverty, or if it's because of a loss, and you need to know that, so you don't make them feel worse while you're talking about it. Yeah, but I am fascinated. I wonder how many people, how many people are you still working with, you started working with say the paper cleanse, and then they stayed on. How many people?
C Lee Cawley 8:24
Oh, great question. So yeah, so right now, I would say over half of the people who did my paper cleanse course have stayed on in my membership, the clarity connection, because then once they kind of get the paper sorted, then they realise, the paper's the hardest thing to do, by the way, of all of the types of organising projects paper is...
C Lee Cawley 9:34
They've got to read it in order to know what it is.
C Lee Cawley 9:44
You really have to look at every single piece of paper. So once people tackle that, then there's kind of confidence. They are so empowered. They're like, Oh, I can do my bookshelf I can do I can do my kitchen That's, you know...
Denise Billen-Mejia 10:01
I think, yeah, hypntism can give you clarity. Which is really what we want for people. It isn't, we don't want to relive the trauma, we want to know which bits of the trauma they need to hang on to, for a better life and which bits they can let go. The pain, the emotion that it contains.
C Lee Cawley 10:21
So, I'm curious, like, and I always ask people, What's your why? Why is it now that you know that you've decided to invest in my course to hire Martin or Denise, why are you doing it? And it's so interesting, because I've had people just recently, I had somebody call me up, and they're like, so I have this article about, you know, when you were doing toys in the Washington Post, like, I think that was 2008. Right. And, you know, and I called myself the toy tamer because I worked with a lot of young families. I'm like, I won't touch a toy now. You know, for love or money. But they literally had that piece of paper for 15 years, thinking, you know, it's kind of that, you know, free contemplation, contemplation, that kind of decision making model where they finally realise, and so I'm finding a lot of people that are coming to me now have been left with a mess from a deceased parent, and they don't want to do that to their adult children.
Denise Billen-Mejia 11:34
That's Swedish death cleaning.
Martin Furber 11:38
That's me at the moment!
C Lee Cawley 11:39
Martin is the executor for friends will, and so he has had to deal with probate and all those wonderful things. And that person wasn't that disorganised. I don't think.
Martin Furber 11:54
No, not all. But it's still a lot to go through. And I'm thinking about I've lost both my parents over the last 10 years. Right in this room, where I'm sitting at the moment, on the opposite side is a big pile of stuff all very neat and tidy from my dad's house. And it's all the little things, all the little memories that I don't want to let go of.
C Lee Cawley 12:15
Yes, yeah.
Denise Billen-Mejia 12:16
So, C Lee, give him a quick suggestion.
C Lee Cawley 12:18
So one of my biggest suggestions is time. And we literally just talked about this with my group recently, somebody had mentioned that her I think her father passed away in September. And we were all kind of like, it's too soon. It's too soon to make those decisions. And the example I gave, in fact, today is the anniversary of my mother's death, which makes me smile because it's Pie Day. And I literally think my mom was holding on to Pie Day because she loved a slice of pie. And it just it makes me smile every time. But I I brought her things home. And it took me five years. I had a suitcase because we had to clear out her assisted living place very quickly. So I just packed her clothes in one suitcase, and I had a quilt made for myself and my two sisters, which was a wonderful thing. Because my mother wore the same clothes for 40 years. She didn't change size. And she was a practical woman. She was born in 1917 Depression, World War Two, so those clothes were nearly threadbare. But you know, every single garment in my quilt was like, Oh, that was the dress she wore to my wedding. That was what she wore to the first Broadway show, we took our daughter to. You know, every garment, those were her pyjamas, right? Just last week, when I wasn't feeling well, I took that quilt and laid it over me. And it was like my mom giving me a hug. So I did that with the clothes, and then the rest of the memorabilia, like I just threw things in a suitcase. I didn't open that suitcase until 2020. During the pandemic, it sat there for four years. And then I was ready. And I was able to very quickly be say, yeah, these are things like she had saved every letter I sent her. And of course now I'm curious, what did I write to her? We lived in England, right? So it was when we lived in England in the 90s. My mom would call on the last Sunday of the month for 30 minutes because it cost $1 A minute long distance.
Denise Billen-Mejia 14:26
I went, I'm just the reverse. I came here.
C Lee Cawley 14:29
And I would pick up the phone and I would talk for 25 minutes. And then in the last five minutes, she would be like, Oh yeah, Aunt Josie had shingles. You know, she filled me in on her life, and then we'd hang up. So we wrote letters back and forth. And I still plan on looking through those letters, because that is the archive of my life. Right The Museum of me are in those letters that I wrote to my mom. So, for you, Martin, when enough time has passed, you might not find it quite so overwhelming.
Martin Furber 15:02
I'm getting to that point now, because it's five years. So I dare say I'm at the same point. I mean, it did do the same thing with my mother's stuff. I took when the time was right, I took great pleasure in taking some of her gorgeous outfits to the charity shop and that kind of thing. And I could just let them go happily. I was glad to get the space back.
C Lee Cawley 15:27
But it's that release feeling to let it go happily? Right. to not feel burdened by it, but to really, you know, thank it for it's service. And know that there's somebody else who could enjoy it. Yeah, it's an interesting time we're at, because I don't know about you know, if you know, this, but in America, at least, the average to clear an estate is 570 hours.
Martin Furber 15:57
Wow.
C Lee Cawley 15:58
Yeah. And that, you know, because people aren't taking care of all of the details. So that's one of the nice things, when people you know, work on their papers and things is that they feel okay. I, you know, I have all my papers gathered up. I know, my daughter knows exactly where to find all of the title to our car, the deed to our house, all of my passwords. And she's an only child, and she's going to have, you know, one parent is to deal with it, you know, so I don't want to leave her with that burden. And that's why so many people are coming to me looking for these solutions, because they have been left with a burden. And it's a lot of time and effort. So bless you, Martin for taking up the estate because yeah, there's a lot to do.
Martin Furber 16:49
But yeah, thanks for that C Lee. Can I just take you back about three or four minutes?
C Lee Cawley 16:54
Sure.
Martin Furber 16:55
Because you've just said something about when when we let go of things, and we're talking about hoarding, and you thank it for its service. And that is so much how we deal with people with addictions and things that they want to let go of. I'm just wondering if again, you know, do you see sort of hoarding, sometimes as a bit of an addiction.
C Lee Cawley 17:16
So I never specialised with people who had hoarding disorder, because I have a background in set and costume design and retail management. I don't have a psychological perspective. And I do believe that because deep hoarding disorder really does need somebody who's a specialist. So when I was doing my organising, I had a very high end DC clientele names that you would probably recognise if I hadn't signed an NDA. And, you know, it was really beautiful homes, very pretty boxes. There's a organisers called the Home edit, they do this pretty box type of thing. I was doing the home edit, when those kids were in their diapers, right. So that's more my MO when I'm doing it when I was doing it in people's homes. But the thanking you for the service that's actually kind of a Marie Kondo concept, but we always again, she, quoted that, but from the very beginning of organising so often, it was just people needed to, wanted me, to bear witness, they need to pick something up. And I'd be like, Oh, it's a cocktail napkin. And then she'd be like, oh, yeah, that was the first time Johnny took me to a really swanky nightclub, in New York City. And I saved that cocktail napkin. And it was a magical evening, and we danced all night. And you could just see, you know, this older woman just having this amazing memories of her like, you know, vibrant life with her husband when they first met. And it'd be like, Okay, do you want to save it? Oh, no, I told you the story we can get rid of it.
C Lee Cawley 19:06
it's a reminder of the things you've done and how...
C Lee Cawley 19:09
She just wants to hear the story one last time right. And so I think that, and I'm sure that you find this, but so much of it is asking the questions and then listening and really really listening and bearing witness and saying back that must have been an amazing evening, right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 19:31
Yeah, that is very, very similar to what we do, because your subconscious, all the things that are getting in the way, were originally put there because they were protective, as your subconscious is really desperately trying to keep you safe by not letting anything change because change is dangerous. And so as we identify those things we do, we thank that thought, for its service, but it can relax now. You've got a new thing you're going to do that will keep you safe.
C Lee Cawley 19:58
Yeah, right. And so, do you, is the idea, is to replace, kind of like we're taking away this idea that kept you safe but doesn't serve you, you're gonna replace it with this idea?
C Lee Cawley 20:06
Not so much on a one for one basis. But if you're dealing with traumatic memories, and whether they were from actual trauma, or whatever they're doing to you now is traumatic, so you help to squash the importance. And you and you introduce new thoughts, but it's not like, Okay, let's take care of this box room and let's put in this now isn't a one for one. But like, probably like cleaning out the drawer, say, oh, that only took 10 minutes what's going on in this cupboard? So you help that. But the same way you say don't pull everything out of every single cupboard, because you're going to throw it all back in. The same way, we don't, when we're dealing with those things, we go very slowly, take one thing at a time, which doesn't mean you have to work with us for months and months and months. Because once you get the hang of it, you do it yourself. You do it you just
C Lee Cawley 21:09
Yeah. Yeah. And again, the correlation is the same thing. Once people get the confidence to know that they can do it themselves. Then they just, you know, and it just makes me laugh, because and I'm sure you've experienced this as well. Months later, they'll call you up and they're like, thank you so much. I haven't been in your house in months, you must have been in their heads for months, right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 21:33
But you're perfectly happy to talk with them.
C Lee Cawley 21:35
Right. And you planted the seeds to empower them to do what they needed to do it. The correlation is actually kind of magical. I'm now going to have to do a lot more research.
Martin Furber 21:50
So you lived in England in the 90s?
C Lee Cawley 21:53
I did. Yes.
Martin Furber 21:55
What did you do over here then?
C Lee Cawley 21:56
So when we moved to England in 1992, it was three months after our wedding and my husband was getting his PhD at Cambridge University. I was allowed to work. If I had been the one getting a degree he would not have been allowed to work. But I was allowed to work. So one of my experiences...
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:18
Was Britain being particularly sexist that time?
C Lee Cawley 22:23
I worked at the Liberty shop Oh, look at I even have a visual aid, a Liberty bag.
Denise Billen-Mejia 22:32
Is that an example of hoarding? Or is it just a strong memory?
C Lee Cawley 22:36
So I have to say, our our daughter's middle name is Liberty, not because I worked on liberty, but because my husband is a civil libertarian. And that's what he focused on. And so she just sent that to us because she went to the Liberty shop. So I worked at Liberty shop. And then I worked at Jaeger and Viola. So I actually worked in high end retail in England, and it was delightful, because I was able, the town and gown thing, right? He was a gown part of the university. But I worked with normal people. You know, like higher end people, but normal people. So we had this lovely experience. And we lived there till 2000. We moved back in 2000. So we had this lovely experience. And I mean, the friends we made in England, once you make a friend and England, once they've decided they're going to make friends with an American, they are your friends for life, our friends from England, are our closest friends still. Which is why we had to make sure we bought a house with an extra bedroom. Because when they come over, it's two or three weeks at a time, which I love. So, yeah, no, it was a magical time in Cambridge.
C Lee Cawley 23:48
So your daughter feels very British, she was born there.
C Lee Cawley 23:54
She was born in Cambridge. She got her PhD. She got her Master's at Cambridge, and now she's living in London. And we actually, there's actually a tree in the Sidney Sussex College garden with her name on it.
Martin Furber 24:06
Oh, wow.
C Lee Cawley 24:07
Yeah, because she was the first child born in 150 years to a fellow of the college because fellows weren't allowed to marry until like the 1950s. Right. And again, and we were afraid we were gonna get kicked out I was trying to hide, but it gets to the point where you can't hide it, and the the master of the college was so gracious and they were so excited. And they made a big fuss over her. So we, they, they had a tree planted and it's got her name on it. So it's, we have we have literal roots in England. So yeah, I'm a big Anglophile. So I was just delighted to you know, to be invited and I'm sure that your people hear from you worldwide. So that is fantastic.
C Lee Cawley 24:59
It's always fun to look at who and where, we you do the analytics of a podcast. How many countries have listened? It's Fascinating.
C Lee Cawley 25:06
Yes. Yeah. So when you're working with your client, do you suggest, make suggestions and say, to your subconscious, like,
Denise Billen-Mejia 25:23
You talk to the client and find out where the where the actual pain points are, but you also need to talk to, when you give the suggestions, they have to be in their voice. You'd never suggest to somebody, something they don't want, or that you haven't had an intellectual conversation about. An intellectual, cognitive conversation. But yes, that kind of thing. So you can set them personal, like suggestions, where every morning when you get up, you will be, a very common thing is to get ready to go to the gym. Because a lot of people come at the beginning of the year and say, I want to get more exercise. So you need things to be able to be done automatically. So, I mean, sometimes the clutter is just because you don't put things back in the same place twice. So it is just that action of deciding where something belongs and putting it there every time without having to think, 'Oh, yeah, what did C Lee say?'. Yeah, just do it.
C Lee Cawley 26:23
Right. Right.
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:25
But without the lecture. It's their voice that I mean, obviously, they're hearing our voice...
C Lee Cawley 26:30
Because that's their intention, right?
Denise Billen-Mejia 26:32
Yes. Exactly!
Martin Furber 26:33
And with hypnosis, because it's not just a question of, you know, waving a wand and putting somebody into hypnosis, you know, the first half of Denise or I sessions, it's the pre talk. This is where we find out from the clients what it is that they want to do that will help their lives be better in whatever way it is they need help with. So the suggestions come from them. And we feed them back, as Denise says in their language, in their words. But it's to alter things people do automatically without thinking. So if you're the kind of person who goes to the fridge, takes the milk out and always leaves the carton on the top. That's something that's relatively easy to change. It's just a habit and habits can be replaced with new habits.
C Lee Cawley 27:24
And all the other stuff is also have a habit of telling yourself you're too fat too thin, or too whatever, either too much, or you're not enough, to put you're just enough.
Martin Furber 27:36
Yeah, or the habit of telling ourselves that we're untidy, when, you know, actually, we can change that if we want to,
C Lee Cawley 27:43
it's that, oh, I can't do anything about it. I've been like that way all my life.
C Lee Cawley 27:46
I love to hear that. Because I see, I feel so strongly. And people are like, Oh, you're naturally organised. And, we all have natural tendencies, right? Some of us can learn languages, some of us are good at musical instruments, but we can always learn these skills. These are absolutely learnable skills that everybody has access to. And you know, some people will be gifted musicians, some people will be doing chopsticks on the piano. But we can all create music just as we can all get organised. These are absolutely learnable.
C Lee Cawley 28:24
And there isn't a finite amount of organisation that you need. It's not like, Oh, you flunked my course. Because you've still got one drawer that isn't right, because all of these things serve a purpose to us. We just may not be conscious of what it is?
C Lee Cawley 28:40
Right. And this is exactly like people like oh, you know, do you walk and I'm like, if you come into my house, I walk the walk right and but I still do every challenge that I have that my members do, and I have done for over a year now. Right now we're doing we're calling the March sanity challenge and we're getting rid of 127 things over the course of the month. And I'm doing it right along because I still like I have a three bedroom house I can easily get rid of 127 things.
Martin Furber 28:45
I'm intrigues C Lee, tell me why 127 things?
C Lee Cawley 29:17
So it's um, it's based on like the brackets of March Madness. Okay, so you so you get rid of one thing in the first round two things in the second round four things in the third round. 8 16 32
Denise Billen-Mejia 29:29
You what March Madness is Martin?
Martin Furber 29:32
No.
C Lee Cawley 29:35
There you go. See? That's where the cultural reference. It's a college best men's basketball. Yeah. And they have these brackets. And so they have all these rounds. So it's kind of going backwards. They go from 64 teams to 3216. But we go we start you know, get rid of one thing. And so the example I always I just gave is Oh, we haven't even had a chance to talk about guilt. Because people are giving gifts, right? And then they feel like they have to hold on to them. So my husband gave me a beautiful blue handbag in 2016. The year my mom died. Election, a whole thing I was it was a sad year for me. And he gave me a beautiful blue handbag. And I used it. I loved it, I used it. But I've kind of downsized, and I bought myself a different blue handbag. And I was feeling kind of guilty about getting rid of this handbag. And I thought no, he gave it to me. I enjoyed it. It served it's purpose.
C Lee Cawley 30:39
To be kind to all your friends who are trying to get things under control, give consumables, and they don't have to be edible. Give flowers, not chocolate, to most of us.
C Lee Cawley 30:51
Right? No, I that or give experiences.
Denise Billen-Mejia 30:54
Yes. That's the perfect one, yeah.
C Lee Cawley 30:55
Yeah, yeah, making memories is so much better. But so I do these things along with my students. And it's, it's a lot of fun. And people just are so empowered. When they're like, Oh, we got rid of it. They're like, Oh, I've lost count. I'm like, no, no, I want to know exactly how many, cos together we're gonna get rid of like, broke things, right? So it's about yeah, the guilt about holding on to gifts. If you can subliminally tell all of your clients that just because somebody gave them a gift, they don't have to hold on to it. This is the biggest gift I think we could give our the next generation.
Denise Billen-Mejia 30:56
That is true of everything. If somebody gave you an insult, you don't have to accept it.
C Lee Cawley 31:27
Can you believe it? We are well over time. I won't know where to begin to edit this one. I don't want to cut anything out.
Denise Billen-Mejia 31:55
That's, we'll just give people an extra long one. The last one was pretty short, when we did the one on on self care. Yeah, it was a particularly short episode for us. So we'll say goodbye to our guest. Well, not to our guest, but to everybody.
Martin Furber 32:11
C Lee, before you go, will you please tell people how they can get in touch with you?
C Lee Cawley 32:15
Absolutely, they can find me at cleecalwley.com I would be delighted to help anybody with any organising things they need. I also have a Facebook group. They're welcome to join a free Facebook group where we do some of these challenges. And I help people with organising things in there and I have people from all over the world. So I'd be delighted for any of your listeners to join in. And I thank you both so much. This was fascinating.
Martin Furber 32:46
It was fantastic. Thank you so much.
C Lee Cawley 32:46
Thank you
Denise Billen-Mejia 32:58
We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and is for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.
Denise Billen-Mejia 33:15
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